The Essential Role of Tree Management in Residential Development with Dan Anderson of Apical

[00:00:04] Welcome to another episode of the Residential Developer Podcast. My name is Nathan Battishall, I'm the host and I'm really privileged today to have Dan Anderson from Apical with us. Dan is a qualified arborist. He does an incredible job around arbor culture, determining the health of trees, looking at tree removal permits, everything and anything revolving around arbor culture on investment development based sites. So it's good to have you here, mate.

[00:00:32] Thanks, Nathan. Glad to be here.

[00:00:34] I know we've been working up to this to get you on for a while and I think it's a really important topic because I think I talk a lot about de-risking a site, looking at a site, doing thorough due diligence on a site. I think the reality is in Australia, especially across the east coast of New South Wales where a lot of our clients are, I think there's a lot of sites that are littered with trees, some native, some not so native.

[00:01:00] And I think it's a common thing where people go and I think it's a common thing where people go and buy a site without looking at the type of trees and the health of the trees. But do you want to just first start off by telling us a little bit of your background?

[00:01:11] What got you into firstly studying arbor culture, practising in that space and how long have you been doing it?

[00:01:18] Yeah, sure. So I've been working with vegetation for probably 25, 30 years now.

[00:01:29] Started in local government actually doing an apprenticeship in parks and gardens and horticulture. So I guess a big part of that was sort of dealing with vegetation within the built environment.

[00:01:43] And it's still a massive role of local government and I guess larger land managers in terms of risk management and trying to balance sort of the living environment with the built environment, particularly as we're working in smaller and smaller spaces these days.

[00:02:05] Yeah, and from there I sort of developed a love for general ecology and went off onto a fairly long-winded journey, I guess, in ecology, vegetation.

[00:02:20] I worked with the state government in catchment management. I worked with a lot of not-for-profits probably around 15 years ago in the early forms of the carbon tax or the sort of carbon mitigation policies.

[00:02:38] Yeah, and then worked further from that point into, I guess, development planning, bushfire management and I guess arboriculture from a planning sense in terms, yeah, really trying to focus in on the role of trees in the landscape, but also the evolution of policy around tree management as well, particularly in the planning space.

[00:03:06] Which I think has been most evident in the last 20 years where governments and institutions are looking more at trying to integrate tree management with things like the urban forest and broader schemes that revolve around heat sinks and managing, I guess, large environmental issues at a regional or local scale.

[00:03:36] And I think the theory's there and we're trying to progress into a space where trees are providing more functions in the landscape for, I guess, carbon emission absorption.

[00:03:53] We're looking at, yeah, managing urban heat levels in Western Sydney landscapes.

[00:03:59] We're looking at aesthetics and beautification things that have always been inherent with trees.

[00:04:05] But, yeah, I guess that's the role that government's taking is trying to really impose broader strategies into tree management at a residential scale.

[00:04:19] Yeah.

[00:04:20] Which is where it becomes very complex, especially when we're trying to increase density and yield on lots because we've got a housing shortage as well at the same time.

[00:04:33] So I've found it a very interesting space.

[00:04:37] I guess in terms of pure arboriculture, I have done a lot with tree removal, tree lopping.

[00:04:46] I'm much more of a, I guess, an academic than I am an operator of a chainsaw, but I have been on the tools also for a long time.

[00:04:56] So there's also that part of it, which is generally more of a safety industry based around risk management, which has been the most, yeah, the predominant focus of an arborist team or an urban tree manager.

[00:05:14] It's been about trying to retain tree health and also reduce risk in a confined space.

[00:05:22] Yep.

[00:05:23] No, you're right.

[00:05:24] I know even myself when I first got into the industry, my side of the industry, the architectural design side of it in the early 2000s,

[00:05:37] I found it was pretty rare that you needed to provide, for example, an arborist report or a tree protection report,

[00:05:42] whereas now it's almost certain even with a single dwelling, let alone multiple dwellings,

[00:05:48] where if there's trees on the site, often now we need to provide these reports.

[00:05:55] And I think even today, I think for a lot of our listeners, some people are doing duplexes, townhouses,

[00:06:01] or smaller residential-based developments.

[00:06:03] I think it's important for people to understand the role of the arborist from a reporting point of view,

[00:06:10] I think, and a planning point of view, both DA, CDC.

[00:06:16] So you've definitely seen that it's become more and more common now for this type of documentation

[00:06:23] and reporting from a planning point of view?

[00:06:25] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:27] And really because there's, I guess, been some evolution in the development control plan instruments

[00:06:36] that the councils are adopting to try to overcome these bigger issues.

[00:06:41] And tree management will always be found in with, like, vegetation, landscaping,

[00:06:48] and other functions of the DA proposal.

[00:06:53] So it will integrate absolutely with your landscape management plan.

[00:06:59] And, yeah, the authorities or the consent authorities,

[00:07:05] they're definitely looking to overcome a range of issues and functions with those instruments

[00:07:13] in the planning space.

[00:07:14] So there's definitely been a massive shift away from tree risk management, if you like,

[00:07:23] which was, I guess, the early building blocks of arboriculture

[00:07:28] and absolutely shifting into the role of trees in a broader sense for the benefit of the community.

[00:07:38] Even culturally with development in residential places,

[00:07:42] like trees were always something that were there, but they didn't need to be there.

[00:07:47] Yeah.

[00:07:48] Essentially, there were things that you could overcome or look beyond.

[00:07:51] Yeah.

[00:07:52] But now in my personal experience and also working a lot with your team, Nathan,

[00:07:57] it's really something that needs to be considered from the start.

[00:08:02] And not only on the lot itself, but on the surrounding locations.

[00:08:06] Yeah.

[00:08:07] Because you can't control land that isn't associated within the lot boundaries.

[00:08:14] So even neighbours have a fairly large and a massive legal input into how trees are managed

[00:08:23] across the lot boundary.

[00:08:25] So the fence line.

[00:08:27] And a lot of people, a lot of developers do get caught by acquiring lots based on all the other metrics.

[00:08:36] So the geometric side of it, the width and the depth and the opportunity for yield and all those things

[00:08:45] that are a function of increasing density.

[00:08:49] And overlook the factor of a neighbouring tree.

[00:08:53] Yeah.

[00:08:53] Oh, there's not even a tree on the site.

[00:08:55] Yeah.

[00:08:55] But if there's a tree that's close to the site, that's large enough to impose on the site,

[00:09:01] then it has to be considered.

[00:09:03] And council has an expectation that the science around that is captured and presented in the DA.

[00:09:11] Yeah.

[00:09:12] So it is a large leap from where we were two decades ago in the complexity of a planning proposal.

[00:09:22] Yeah.

[00:09:22] Yeah, that's right.

[00:09:23] And it really plays a massive role in terms of the acquisition.

[00:09:26] Like, there's probably not a week goes by where we see something come across our desk where

[00:09:32] someone's gone on board a site without engaging any type of arborist advice on a site where

[00:09:40] there is large neighbouring trees or, worse still, trees on a site or trees on the front of the

[00:09:46] block that on the council side of the block that can impact the site.

[00:09:50] And I know I definitely advocate for if someone is looking to buy a development site just to

[00:09:59] pay an arborist to do some initial due diligence work, are you finding that's becoming more

[00:10:04] and more common now where people who are doing things the right way are actually engaging

[00:10:10] arborist advice before acquiring a site?

[00:10:12] Just so they know what they're buying.

[00:10:15] Yeah.

[00:10:15] They're able to buy confidence knowing that, okay, we definitely can't build around that

[00:10:21] tree.

[00:10:22] That tree's likely going to have to stay.

[00:10:24] Therefore, we might, yield might decrease.

[00:10:28] Yeah.

[00:10:28] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:10:29] And there are interventions and there are some engineering controls that are accessible

[00:10:37] to good designers.

[00:10:40] But it's really paramount that these things, these items and issues are captured early on.

[00:10:48] So we don't have to redesign and go back and spend lots of money on doing plans three times.

[00:10:55] Yeah.

[00:10:55] And also getting the expectation of what is the actual capacity yield opportunity of the site,

[00:11:03] given that all the attributes have now been acknowledged.

[00:11:08] Yeah.

[00:11:08] Rather than, hey, well, there's a whole checklist of all these different, I guess, commercial

[00:11:15] decisions that you work through.

[00:11:17] And trees have, probably quite rightly, have always been fairly low on that list of considerations.

[00:11:23] Yeah.

[00:11:25] But in terms of the overall outcome, they're becoming a much larger issue and the factor

[00:11:31] of where they sit on that list is probably a lot higher than what it used to be in terms

[00:11:39] of whether the property acquisition is as viable as you would have thought it was initially.

[00:11:46] So, and it does vary a lot in area, in sort of regionality, because trees are also viewed

[00:11:58] as a surrogate for a lot of other aesthetic things.

[00:12:02] So generally, older growth trees and areas that are leafy and are attractive, they tend to have

[00:12:12] higher consideration and controls that aren't necessarily directly written into a planning

[00:12:21] instrument or a control beyond other LJs, council areas.

[00:12:26] But when you go to practically apply tree management, you're going to find that there's a different

[00:12:33] response based on the history and a whole range of cultural values of that particular location.

[00:12:41] Yeah.

[00:12:41] And street trees as well, a lot of the older areas, the street trees that are a public asset,

[00:12:49] they're 60 years old in some areas.

[00:12:52] So their footprint in the landscape is much larger.

[00:12:57] And then newer states or newer developed areas, so 20 years old, the footprint of those trees

[00:13:03] is much smaller, but yet they're controlled and managed using very similar instruments.

[00:13:10] Yeah.

[00:13:10] Yeah.

[00:13:11] So yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:14] Tree size, tree age and the aesthetics that are quantified within a demographic of an area

[00:13:24] are factors when you're getting feedback from an authority, for sure.

[00:13:30] That's great.

[00:13:32] Where's the first place someone should look to identify what trees are protected and what trees

[00:13:38] are not protected in that particular council?

[00:13:40] Is there somewhere people can go?

[00:13:43] Yeah.

[00:13:44] Yeah.

[00:13:44] There are a couple of main sort of checkpoints that say I would start with from a desktop assessment.

[00:13:52] So, and you're quite right.

[00:13:55] A tree's just not just a tree.

[00:13:58] There's a very large variant in terms of what you see being green and structural.

[00:14:06] It really does depend on the type of species.

[00:14:09] So, when we're looking at scoring a tree for, in a value sense, using, there are some key methodologies

[00:14:19] that are sort of standardised in boriculture.

[00:14:22] But essentially, a tree has a value from an aesthetic and landscape perspective.

[00:14:28] It has a value from a heritage and historical perspective.

[00:14:32] And it has a value from a ecological and biodiversity perspective.

[00:14:40] So, essentially, it's a triangular approach in the methodology to providing a score for each

[00:14:47] of those elements.

[00:14:49] And then over the top of that, we look at tree methods that are based around risk management

[00:14:58] that are more the older school methods of scoring a tree.

[00:15:02] So, that looks at useful life expectancy.

[00:15:07] So, the ULE.

[00:15:08] It looks at the geometric dimensions of the tree.

[00:15:12] So, the DBH, the canopy width.

[00:15:15] And then it looks at form and structure.

[00:15:18] So, if you integrate form, structure, health, vitality, which is a risk management type approach

[00:15:27] to tree scoring, and you overlay that with the aesthetics, the environmental,

[00:15:33] and the cultural values of trees.

[00:15:36] If you put all that together, you can, I guess, score a tree or get some basis of expectation

[00:15:45] of how that tree is going to be viewed by the community.

[00:15:50] Yeah.

[00:15:51] And then, obviously, each council has a list of exotic tree species of which some are considered weeds

[00:15:59] and not highly regarded.

[00:16:01] And then other LGAs will look at specific species of trees that have a historical recognition,

[00:16:10] like Kiama, for example, in our backyard, Norfolk Island pine trees and fig trees

[00:16:17] and liver stoner cabbage tree palms.

[00:16:21] So, whilst they're viewed as a tree in general, in the Kiama LGA, those three species are viewed

[00:16:29] more highly than the others.

[00:16:31] Yes.

[00:16:31] And that's very hard to differentiate in literature because it's generally not written down anywhere.

[00:16:37] Yeah.

[00:16:38] It may be buried in the DCP, but most counts, most if not all local government areas that

[00:16:45] I'm familiar with will have an exempt species list.

[00:16:48] Yes.

[00:16:49] So, they'll have a, they'll also have a definition of what constitutes a tree and that does vary

[00:16:57] as well.

[00:16:58] Yeah.

[00:16:58] And that definition is generally related to size, which is a forestry metric originally.

[00:17:06] Yeah.

[00:17:06] So, always consult the DCP.

[00:17:10] Yep.

[00:17:10] Always look at your sort of, your computer-based data sets that we've all got access to these

[00:17:18] days.

[00:17:18] So, near maps and Google Maps and Street View.

[00:17:21] Yeah.

[00:17:22] Six maps.

[00:17:24] Look at the size of things that are on the site, which is, again, will be a function in

[00:17:29] the aerial photography from the shade and canopy cover.

[00:17:32] Yep.

[00:17:33] And then, you know, for a few hundred dollars to get a local expert to go past the site and

[00:17:40] identify the species and give you some feedback in terms of their dealings in that area.

[00:17:47] Yes.

[00:17:47] It's really going to solve that problem or at least arm you with the information you need

[00:17:53] to make a decision on whether that's the right site.

[00:17:58] Yeah.

[00:17:59] Yeah.

[00:17:59] No, I agree.

[00:18:00] And I think just spending a few, like you said, a few hundred dollars to get some really

[00:18:04] good advice, initial due diligence.

[00:18:08] Like you said, it could be the difference between, I know you helped us on a site in Batemans Bay,

[00:18:12] which was brilliant.

[00:18:13] Like, the agent was saying, yeah, you can do six townhouses.

[00:18:17] But I looked at the site.

[00:18:18] I looked at the gum trees and I thought, at the back of that site, I thought, oh, I have

[00:18:25] concerns over those trees being able to go.

[00:18:28] So I felt in my mind it's possibly five.

[00:18:32] Yeah.

[00:18:33] But thankfully, our client who was happy to pay some money to get some initial due diligence

[00:18:40] by yourselves was able to look at the site.

[00:18:43] You were able to look at it, determine it, give us some really good feedback on what the

[00:18:46] likely tree protection zones would be.

[00:18:48] And we were correct.

[00:18:50] It was for five.

[00:18:51] So our client was able to run the numbers for five, make the offer based on the numbers

[00:18:55] for five, knowing that if they miss out on the site, well, they avoided a headache.

[00:19:01] Unfortunately, someone else would have bought a headache.

[00:19:04] Absolutely.

[00:19:05] But that's the, for me, that's a real life scenario of where someone spending a couple

[00:19:10] of hundred dollars then had the confidence of knowing, in fact, no, you can't fit six

[00:19:14] on this site.

[00:19:16] Yep.

[00:19:17] And they made their offer accordingly.

[00:19:19] Thankfully for them, they got, they were able to buy it.

[00:19:21] But I've seen it where the other occasion works where, for example, you can, they're told

[00:19:28] they could fit four.

[00:19:30] You look at the site.

[00:19:32] No, it's fairly likely we need to drop the yield for three.

[00:19:37] Yep.

[00:19:38] They've missed out on the site.

[00:19:39] Someone's got on board without paying, engaging an arborist.

[00:19:43] Yep.

[00:19:43] And then learned the hard way, unfortunately, where they probably submitted a DA for four

[00:19:48] townhouses and then maybe got lucky, but often not.

[00:19:53] Yep.

[00:19:53] And then had to drop the yield, but they've run their numbers on four all of a sudden.

[00:19:58] Exactly.

[00:19:58] They make no money on a project.

[00:20:00] Exactly.

[00:20:01] Because they didn't want to spend a couple of hundred dollars.

[00:20:03] Yeah, that's right.

[00:20:05] And if we look at just the initial, let's call it a feasibility assessment, which is what

[00:20:11] we call it in the office.

[00:20:13] But in terms of that feasibility assessment, not only does it take the guesswork out of

[00:20:19] it to some extent, but it also engages the thought process about, okay, if we are to

[00:20:25] proceed with this, what design options do we have?

[00:20:29] What can the planners do to get involved in this early phase?

[00:20:32] And then we look at square meterage and yield specific base numbers.

[00:20:38] And I guess much with sort of human behavior, we tend to look around us and work off precedent.

[00:20:46] And a lot of the time, a very common conversation I'll have is, well, three streets over, two

[00:20:53] doors up, we observe this happening with trees.

[00:20:56] And they got rid of all their trees.

[00:20:59] And why are we getting dealt with this completely different scenario?

[00:21:05] And the simple answer to that is that not all trees are the same.

[00:21:09] And it can come down to what species it is.

[00:21:12] It can come down to some, again, trees grow differently as well.

[00:21:18] And there is some level of expertise that can be used there to validate or differentiate what

[00:21:26] is reasonable for an area of a tree.

[00:21:30] And there's a lot of trees that are exempt.

[00:21:34] So another case in point in Theroux, we looked at a very heavily vegetated lot.

[00:21:41] And on the aerial imagery, I was pretty concerned for the client.

[00:21:45] And I said, well, they'd already purchased the lot.

[00:21:48] And I thought, well, this is going to have a lot of problems.

[00:21:53] Funnily enough, when I got out there, and this is one of the good stories.

[00:21:57] It doesn't always pan out in the positive side of the ledger.

[00:22:01] But 80% of the trees that were actually on the site, and I think there was like 130 specimens

[00:22:08] in that report, 80% of those were actually considered exempt.

[00:22:14] So...

[00:22:14] They got lucky.

[00:22:15] Yeah.

[00:22:16] So that was one where we had the numbers in our favour.

[00:22:21] But on the flip side of one large eucalypt tree can take a duplex off the page.

[00:22:29] Yeah, that's right.

[00:22:30] So...

[00:22:31] Yep.

[00:22:31] It can make a big difference, can't it?

[00:22:33] And I love what you said, and I agree.

[00:22:35] I hear that all the time.

[00:22:36] Oh, look, I saw a DA get approved around the corner.

[00:22:39] They got all their gum trees removed.

[00:22:41] And you're right.

[00:22:43] But the health of those trees could have been quite damaged, whereas this tree could be

[00:22:50] extremely healthy.

[00:22:53] Exactly.

[00:22:54] So obviously it's going to be assessed differently, I guess, isn't it, from a planning perspective?

[00:22:59] Yeah.

[00:22:59] Yeah.

[00:22:59] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:23:00] So, you know...

[00:23:02] So just looking at the species of the trees isn't enough, is it?

[00:23:05] You've really got to look at the health.

[00:23:07] That's right.

[00:23:08] And I guess that's probably in its purest form the original skill of an arborist is they

[00:23:13] can identify structural weaknesses, decay, decline, pathogens and biological impacts to the tree.

[00:23:23] So they'll always come back to a safety metric.

[00:23:26] And really that's where a lot of the approval for tree removal was originally born in that space.

[00:23:34] So councils have a large responsibility in that risk matrix space to make sure that trees can be made safe in, I guess, residential and urban landscapes.

[00:23:48] So that's the other element to it as well.

[00:23:51] Like you might have a fairly significant tree.

[00:23:54] It scores very well in terms of the heritage, the environment and the aesthetics.

[00:23:59] But then it could have a fairly large integrity issue, which would take a higher level of investigation.

[00:24:08] But it certainly warrants an investigation because it's another element of planning that is probably always sort of lurked around in the background, but not so much anymore.

[00:24:27] Yep.

[00:24:27] Yeah.

[00:24:27] And councils are under a lot of pressure as well to keep urban canopy because, you know, the residential areas, large green acre, greenfield development sites, they're hot.

[00:24:41] Yeah.

[00:24:42] The statistics and science tells us that, like Western Sydney is five degrees hotter.

[00:24:48] Yeah.

[00:24:49] So we're living in smaller spaces, but we also need shade.

[00:24:55] Yes.

[00:24:55] That's true.

[00:24:56] And they have to balance that stuff out.

[00:24:59] And I think the modern developer has to start to think differently.

[00:25:05] I think the reality is a lot of infield development sites have large trees of which some are protected, some are natives that are in really healthy order.

[00:25:17] Yeah.

[00:25:18] So I think the modern developer, the modern investor has to be on the front foot early in the acquisition process to determine, is that tree healthy?

[00:25:29] And be creative.

[00:25:30] Just because I know we've done this with you where we've looked at a development site.

[00:25:35] We've had the report come back.

[00:25:36] So we've run option A, option B, and we've said, okay, let's just say we need to get a yield of four on a development site.

[00:25:44] Option one could be this scenario.

[00:25:47] Option two could be after identifying tree protection zones, root protection zones, creative solutions.

[00:25:55] Maybe there's a plan B.

[00:25:57] But it's when you don't have a plan, when all your plan is just to knock down the trees.

[00:26:02] And I think those days are gone.

[00:26:04] Those days, or they're not gone, but those days are becoming fewer and far between now because we are living in a world now where we are trying to conserve trees where we can.

[00:26:15] I'm an advocate for keeping trees if we can on development sites because I think the reality is a lot of them are in healthy condition.

[00:26:25] They're established.

[00:26:27] I do get frustrated when council zone areas are three, medium density, that are living in trees.

[00:26:35] And then they, for me, it's frustrating because there hasn't been foresight from a council point of view.

[00:26:43] They've deemed that an area that they want to see a higher density, yet they've carried it out in an area that's littered with native trees.

[00:26:53] Yeah.

[00:26:53] Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:54] And it can be a tree that your uncle or your father planted in the backyard 30, 40 years ago in the 80s or 90s.

[00:27:03] That tree is now a function of the landscape and it's kind of like an asset of the community in council's view.

[00:27:10] Yeah.

[00:27:11] Because if it shows up on an aerial image, it's there.

[00:27:14] Yeah.

[00:27:16] And they'll generally plant it pretty much in the centre of the backyard or in the centre of the front yard.

[00:27:23] So moving forward, they become a massive management item.

[00:27:29] And people always sort of looked at trees, you know, the large remnant eucalypt that's been there for 70 years.

[00:27:36] Well, they only make up a much smaller proportion of sites now.

[00:27:42] Yeah.

[00:27:42] We've got a lot of this kind of mixed vegetation type that's been – it's not remnant, but it's been created by people in areas – again, like older developed areas are the areas where we have large lot sizes.

[00:27:57] Yeah.

[00:27:57] It could be – yeah, you could get a higher density.

[00:28:00] Exactly.

[00:28:00] They're the first place you go where we can actually achieve housing targets.

[00:28:05] Yeah.

[00:28:05] Right?

[00:28:06] And granny flats and other ancillary type dwellings.

[00:28:10] So, you know, it makes sense that we're targeting these areas because 800 square metre lot, we don't live like that anymore.

[00:28:19] That's an opportunity.

[00:28:20] Yeah.

[00:28:20] But if it's got a couple of trees in there that were planted in the 80s, they need to be adhered to and managed.

[00:28:29] And you're quite right.

[00:28:31] Like we have green space requirements.

[00:28:33] We have deep soil zone requirements.

[00:28:36] We have infiltration and engineering requirements.

[00:28:39] Well, we need to utilise these spaces that are mandatory for multiple uses.

[00:28:49] Yeah.

[00:28:50] And if we have a tree – and I think I do recall that project where trees were a reasonable function of a site.

[00:28:58] Well, that's where we double down on those spaces.

[00:29:01] Yeah.

[00:29:02] Yeah.

[00:29:02] And then you make them a feature of the site, you embellish them to generate some interest and income, make it different to the norm, and then you can also achieve your other requirements in the same space.

[00:29:17] Yeah.

[00:29:18] And when you can do that, that is functionally good planning.

[00:29:23] Yeah.

[00:29:23] And that's where the dollars can be found because people also have an interest in something that's slightly different in the market.

[00:29:34] So if you've got something that hinders you, you need to look at it as an opportunity.

[00:29:38] Yeah.

[00:29:39] But you also need to identify that early on.

[00:29:42] Yeah.

[00:29:43] Yeah.

[00:29:43] No, you're right.

[00:29:44] And landscaping is a huge feature these days, and I think it does come down to good planning.

[00:29:49] And it comes down to people engaging the right people at the right time of the project.

[00:29:56] Unfortunately, a lot of people are buying sites without engaging professional advice.

[00:30:02] Obviously, if you're buying a site to do a development, and if you get that advice that it's fairly unlikely those trees are going, well, you obviously walk away from the project.

[00:30:14] Unfortunately, people haven't taken on that advice or they haven't even engaged advice, I find, is a common one.

[00:30:21] Yeah.

[00:30:22] So the problem is you've got a stressed out client then.

[00:30:25] You've got a stressed out investor or developer.

[00:30:29] But the reality is a lot of it came as a result of a lack of planning, a lack of following what I believe to be one of the key steps.

[00:30:38] I just think arboriculture, engaging a good qualified arborist who understands due diligence is one of the most critical things I find to an infill site where there's trees involved.

[00:30:54] Because the reality is you're taking on a risk if you're not assessing it early.

[00:31:01] Yeah.

[00:31:01] Yeah, I agree.

[00:31:03] And in terms of the environmental range of factors, like you inherit and acquire the soil.

[00:31:13] So the soil type is generally something that's not inspected very often.

[00:31:19] Always we deal with slope and we deal with engineering factors.

[00:31:25] But, yeah, most overlooked and becoming the most or one of the more critical parts is vegetation.

[00:31:35] Yeah.

[00:31:37] And I really do think it's a cultural, from a cultural sort of background in terms we've always had a lot of trees and a lot of space.

[00:31:47] Yeah.

[00:31:47] So it hasn't been something that's always been heavily embedded into our sort of planning metrics and thinking.

[00:31:56] Yep.

[00:31:58] Yeah.

[00:31:58] And it happens a lot as well with the sites that are heavily vegetated and they might stay on the market for a little while.

[00:32:07] And then people say, oh, this is a really good opportunity because from a geometric perspective, it stacks up, right?

[00:32:14] It's got a 15.5 metre frontage.

[00:32:17] It's got a 20 to 30 metre depth.

[00:32:19] So it's going to, you know, provide an opportunity and then you start questioning, well, why is it sort of sitting on the market?

[00:32:27] Maybe I can grab a steal here.

[00:32:30] Yeah.

[00:32:31] Or you pay overs for something without the foresight and education or without the good advice.

[00:32:38] Yeah.

[00:32:39] And once it's yours, it's yours.

[00:32:42] So you might have to flip it and there's money to be lost in that process, obviously.

[00:32:48] Yeah.

[00:32:48] That's right.

[00:32:49] And then people start to ask the question, well, why have you only owned it for three months?

[00:32:54] There's obviously a reason why.

[00:32:55] Yeah.

[00:32:57] And the next buyer might do their proper due diligence and engage someone like yourself and then the cat's out of the bag.

[00:33:04] Exactly.

[00:33:05] And it's very easy for an agent to say, oh, don't worry about the trees because you can just knock them over.

[00:33:11] That's it.

[00:33:11] I'm amazed the amount of agents say, oh, those trees are right to go.

[00:33:15] Yeah.

[00:33:15] Why are they not gone?

[00:33:16] Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:17] Or according to who?

[00:33:19] Yeah, that's right.

[00:33:20] Where is that written down?

[00:33:21] Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:22] Like, yeah, I think that's a key one, isn't it?

[00:33:25] Don't just believe that because an agent told you that.

[00:33:30] Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:31] And the consent authority has an obligation to ensure that they retain as much vegetation in the landscape as possible.

[00:33:40] Yeah.

[00:33:40] So you need to have that as your underpinning knowledge base.

[00:33:45] Yeah.

[00:33:45] Essentially, less is not more in terms of a council tree officer or a council environmental team, which, again, is something that needs to be understood that these parts of the DA, they're not dealt with by the planning officer who has an engineering or architectural background.

[00:34:07] Yeah.

[00:34:07] They are shifted across to a specific team who are going to be using the same methods, metrics, tools that I'm presenting to justify my case.

[00:34:22] Yeah.

[00:34:23] So, yeah, you shouldn't underestimate the other side of the equation because that's what their instruments are hoping to achieve.

[00:34:36] And a lot of these processes as well, these sort of bigger picture ideals, they're not embedded specifically in the planning instrument.

[00:34:48] They're things that are evolving and we're not managing them well yet.

[00:34:54] We don't have the instruments we need to kind of flesh out these objectives.

[00:35:00] So as a surrogate, the existing instrument is being morphed into something slightly different.

[00:35:08] Yeah.

[00:35:08] Because the DCP, it may be eight years old.

[00:35:12] It might be six years old.

[00:35:13] Yeah.

[00:35:14] So it's the hardest question I can answer anybody is what do you think council's expectation will be for that tree?

[00:35:23] Yeah.

[00:35:24] Because I have had that many variations of outcome.

[00:35:31] But all I can say is if you use the instruments, if you use the science, and if you use a theory that trees are going to have to be retained in the landscape and we need to utilize them as a function of our design,

[00:35:49] then you're going to be at the front of the queue in terms of getting a good outcome.

[00:35:55] Yep.

[00:35:56] Yep.

[00:35:56] Yeah.

[00:35:57] No, that's good advice.

[00:35:58] And look, what we might do just for time's sake to wrap it up, we get a lot of questions around,

[00:36:05] obviously, we've been talking a lot about, I guess, the DA perspective.

[00:36:10] What a lot of people don't realize is that there's a CDC pathway for approvals these days from a design perspective.

[00:36:20] So let's talk like duplexes and maybe triplexes, terraces, CDC, under the Low Rise Diversity Code.

[00:36:27] Obviously, there is a mechanism in place for tree in terms of building locations to trees and also some tree removal under complying development.

[00:36:39] What are some of those elements in terms of proximity to trees?

[00:36:46] Yeah.

[00:36:47] Yeah.

[00:36:47] So you're quite right.

[00:36:48] That's picked up in one of the SEP instruments, State Environmental Planning Policies under the CDC pathway.

[00:36:58] So essentially anything that's within three metres of the design footprint of a proposal will be considered for removal under the proposal,

[00:37:12] so long as it doesn't exceed a certain scale of size.

[00:37:17] Yes.

[00:37:17] And that's a relationship with canopy width.

[00:37:21] So, yeah, CDC is generally for sites that have a low level of vegetation when you initially purchase them,

[00:37:32] so they're going to be reasonably obvious.

[00:37:34] Yeah.

[00:37:35] And, again, the provision is there to try to be reasonable in that space that we are trying to increase population density

[00:37:45] and there is an objective to allow a developer to get the financial and commercial yield that's reasonable for that site.

[00:37:57] So generally it will pick up trees that are in the lower age class.

[00:38:04] It will allow for the standard setbacks to be applied by the design footprint and then where you have a conflict of,

[00:38:13] yeah, anything between zero and three metres from that footprint, there is an opportunity for that tree to be approved for removal.

[00:38:22] So it's less protected.

[00:38:24] Yes.

[00:38:24] If you like.

[00:38:25] Yeah.

[00:38:25] And, again, a basic report initially can sort of open up whether CDC is a reasonable pathway opportunity for the site.

[00:38:37] Yeah.

[00:38:37] And, again, there's time.

[00:38:40] There's time, money, and scale all involved in that decision-making process.

[00:38:46] Yeah.

[00:38:47] So I guess the first cull in feasibility is, is the site feasible at all?

[00:38:53] Are the tree assets on site large and complex?

[00:38:59] And then that's going to shift you almost certainly into a DA but also almost certainly into a reduction of space.

[00:39:07] Yes.

[00:39:09] But then from that tier down, we then say, well, the site doesn't have an overt amount of tree assets.

[00:39:17] We're not hindered by large neighbouring trees or a fairly dense tree road verge.

[00:39:25] CDC looks a reasonable option.

[00:39:28] So that's also a massive item of whether CDC is a pathway that's available.

[00:39:38] So, again, everyone, you sort of start with your drainage and floods, creeks, soil types, slopes, bushfire, planting, and you tick all those off.

[00:39:51] And you go, oh, look, CDC is looking like an option here.

[00:39:56] Yeah.

[00:39:56] And then you hit a tree hurdle.

[00:39:58] Yeah.

[00:39:59] And then it isn't an option.

[00:40:01] The block's purchased and you're in a DA.

[00:40:04] Yeah.

[00:40:04] And I think, look, I think even to wrap it up, I think there's so much more we could talk about.

[00:40:10] I'm sure at some stage next year we might get you back on to talk about in a bit more depth about some of these things.

[00:40:17] But I think in a nutshell, people can avoid a lot of these issues by firstly engaging an arborist to look at it.

[00:40:26] If your strategy is to do a CDC, well, the beauty is you can engage an arborist before you buy the site to look at it, assess it,

[00:40:34] and they'll be able to tell you, no, we can't go CDC, well, this will need to be DA.

[00:40:41] If you only want to do CDC, well, great.

[00:40:44] You walk away from that site, you find the next one.

[00:40:47] Yeah.

[00:40:48] So a lot of it, a lot of these issues can be resolved, I guess, from good planning, like you said earlier at the start, isn't it?

[00:40:56] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:40:57] And if you pursue the project, the data that you've already acquired in that feasibility is of complete use to the next phase.

[00:41:08] So you would have had to have gone down that pathway at some point.

[00:41:13] So if a feasibility is essentially a collection of site data, a review of that data against all these kind of metrics and methods that we've spoken about today,

[00:41:25] and then should you proceed through to your planning proposal, you're going to have to present all that information anyway.

[00:41:33] That's it.

[00:41:33] And all that changes is the level of detail and the problems that can be resolved through that higher level of scrutiny and design.

[00:41:44] But absolutely, the clients who do that get the best results.

[00:41:50] They're more likely to engage in the process of development again.

[00:41:55] Yeah.

[00:41:56] And the outcome is going to be much more representative of the initial expectation from the start.

[00:42:04] Yeah.

[00:42:05] Yep.

[00:42:05] Less stress because they've hit that, they've seen that hurdle at the start, less stress.

[00:42:12] Yeah.

[00:42:13] And then a good outcome.

[00:42:14] And then, you know, people like us and the team, your team who I work with a lot obviously, but we can work much more effectively and our clients always get the best outcome when we're engaged from the start.

[00:42:34] Yeah.

[00:42:34] At no additional cost.

[00:42:36] Yep.

[00:42:36] And in fact, I would probably argue it's actually a lot cheaper because solving problems is not inexpensive.

[00:42:44] Yes.

[00:42:44] Exactly.

[00:42:45] I agree.

[00:42:46] I couldn't agree more.

[00:42:47] And I always tell clients anyway, factor in some money for due diligence in your feasibility.

[00:42:53] And if you walk away from that site, have enough money in that feasibility that it factors into your second site, your next site.

[00:43:02] Because the reality is, if you've just spent a couple of hundred bucks, even a thousand bucks with a few different consultants to get good thorough due diligence.

[00:43:11] If you walk away from that site, you just walked away from a $1 million, $2 million, $3 million headache.

[00:43:19] Yeah.

[00:43:19] So you've actually avoided a huge amount of pain just to spend a little bit of money to give you, so you can sleep at night and give you peace of mind and push ahead.

[00:43:29] Yeah.

[00:43:30] Yeah.

[00:43:55] Oh, absolutely.

[00:43:58] And you'll be able to have clear expectations of what you can actually do on the site and either walk away from it or pursue it.

[00:44:05] So, look, if you enjoyed this episode, share it around, like, subscribe.

[00:44:11] We'll make sure we've got Dan's website information in the show notes so you can reach out.

[00:44:17] Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.