The Architect’s Perspective: Balancing Design, Compliance, and Costs with Blake Williams of Duplex Building Design

[00:00:04] Well, welcome to another episode of the Residential Developer Podcast. My name's Nathan Battishall, I'm your host. And today I'm really privileged to have someone from our team, one of our senior designers, incredible building designer, just about finished his masters in architecture. I've got Blake Williams on today. Welcome to the podcast finally, Blake.

[00:00:23] Hey, how's it going?

[00:00:24] It's good to have you on. Look, we might just kick off. Today we're going to be talking a lot about the design process, understanding the development design process, because I think, obviously, anyone who's listening, you're a residential developer, investor, builder developer, and I think it's important to understand the design process, because it just enables a really smooth process, but it also really helps you understand the ins and outs of the design process.

[00:00:54] And I think, as a result of why that process is in place, because it's not just a box to tick, but we've developed a really streamlined system process to make the process enjoyable too. So, Blake's all over this side of it. So, we're going to draw out some of that today. But do you want to just start off, tell us a little bit about yourself, what got you into design and architectural design, maybe a little bit about your background too, just in the industry?

[00:01:21] Yeah, so straight out of school, I did...

[00:01:24] I did a diploma in building design, which went for two years. And then I went straight into full-time work, just in Wollongong. And I guess this gave me like a really good construction background. I worked a lot with, and I previously worked for a structural engineer.

[00:01:45] So, that gave me a really good construction knowledge and how to keep a design very cost-effective and structurally good, as well as like efficient in the way it sort of sits, especially with upper floors and like avoiding using steel beams and that sort of thing.

[00:02:05] And then after three and a half years, I was like, I wanted to further my studies a little bit. So, I ended up enrolling in a Bachelor of Architecture with the goal of becoming registered as an architect.

[00:02:17] So, I'm currently... I've graduated Bachelor of Architecture and now I'm halfway through Master's. So, almost there. Yeah. And I guess this kind of aspect brought a different type of design to it, which is more about the design process and like maybe more about focused on people and how they interact with the building.

[00:02:43] Yeah. So, I guess those two kind of aspects really brought my design process together in keeping like both parts of like architecture together, really.

[00:02:57] Yeah. Yep. Now, that's really good. And tell us a little bit about a couple of awards you've won.

[00:03:04] Yeah.

[00:03:04] I know you won't tell us, so I thought I'll draw that out just to celebrate a couple of milestones.

[00:03:12] Yeah.

[00:03:12] What are some of the concerns you've hit even just through your studies?

[00:03:14] Do you want to just share?

[00:03:15] Yeah, I've won a couple. I got runners up in Sona Studio, it was called. So, that was like a student award. It was like a competition that went for a week and we had to come up with a design about incorporating people into existing structures or infrastructure that's not used.

[00:03:36] Yeah.

[00:04:06] For my uni and it's by Western Sydney that I issued.

[00:04:10] Yeah.

[00:04:10] So, pretty cool.

[00:04:11] Yeah.

[00:04:12] Well, it's a credit to you, mate, because you're good at what you do and yeah, that's great.

[00:04:16] Yeah, thanks.

[00:04:17] Thanks.

[00:04:17] Look, let's spend some time really honing in on the design process because I think you hit the nail on the head very well.

[00:04:26] There's a process side of it, but there's also a people side of it too because the reality is, and I've been able to watch this, I think it's fitting that you come on today because I've been able to see that you're very good at adapting to different approaches based on people's personality, based on people's needs.

[00:04:45] We live in an age now where COVID probably taught us that, that some clients you'll never even get to meet them because they prefer virtual.

[00:04:53] Some people like face-to-face.

[00:04:55] Some people like a combination of the two.

[00:04:57] Some people are more needy than others.

[00:04:59] Some people are less hands-on.

[00:05:02] Yeah, exactly.

[00:05:03] Have you just, do you want to just talk us through a little bit about that ability to have a process but to also be a little bit adaptable too based on the personality or needs of a client?

[00:05:15] Well, I guess there's kind of the two aspects, like you said.

[00:05:19] So there's the virtual and then there's the in-person.

[00:05:22] Before COVID, it was very much like print out a set of plans or the survey and just sort of get a pen and paper and just draw on it and discuss options and sort of map it out and then go to the computer after the meeting and draw it up.

[00:05:36] Yeah.

[00:05:36] But I guess since COVID, everything's gone a lot of virtual sort of thing.

[00:05:40] So we can now sort of stream our screen with the client wherever they are and have our live program there and adjust things accordingly, which I actually find quite efficient because they're not hand-drawing and then going and putting it in the program.

[00:05:59] Yeah.

[00:06:00] I guess as well, it depends on the client.

[00:06:04] Some like to come in to the office if they're like an old school sort of, they prefer face-to-face.

[00:06:10] Yep.

[00:06:10] But also have like we have clients that are, you know, traveling Australia in a Caribbean, for example.

[00:06:17] And they're, you know, got their Wi-Fi set up and we're doing, you know, client meetings from the other side of Australia, which is crazy.

[00:06:24] Yep.

[00:06:25] Yep.

[00:06:25] So, yeah, it's really good, those two sort of aspects.

[00:06:29] Yep.

[00:06:29] And, you know, we're pretty flexible with it all.

[00:06:32] Yeah.

[00:06:32] And I guess different personalities mean different ways that you work with people, I'm guessing, as well?

[00:06:38] Yeah.

[00:06:39] Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:41] Some people are very email-orientated as well.

[00:06:45] Yeah.

[00:06:45] Like there's some we only need to do one meeting and they're happy to just send an email with a couple of changes and things like that.

[00:06:52] Yeah.

[00:06:53] So, yeah, everyone's sort of different.

[00:06:58] Some investors and developers are very busy and they've got lots of projects going on at once.

[00:07:02] So they find, you know, just an email, you know, is quicker for them.

[00:07:06] Yep.

[00:07:07] So, yeah, everyone's different with the way they want to design and work on, you know, the design process.

[00:07:14] Yep.

[00:07:15] And, yeah, it kind of works well.

[00:07:18] Yeah, that's good.

[00:07:18] And, look, obviously it's important for investors and developers to understand that there is a design process.

[00:07:26] And, obviously, every different design firms have different processes and ways they do things.

[00:07:33] Even different designers within the same firm can have slight variances on how they service a client.

[00:07:39] But I thought it would be good today to just look at some of the ins and outs and even some of that process and what that entails.

[00:07:48] And even from your experience, how you've found the different parts of the process actually can really help ensure a successful project.

[00:07:58] We might talk about the design element, the compliance element, the buildability element, the, you know, costing element.

[00:08:05] Yeah.

[00:08:06] We can touch on some of those things as well.

[00:08:09] But do you want to just run us through the archetypical process and we might even just pull up at different points and you can hone in on sort of key things from the very, like, sort of, I guess, from initial start to, you know, the builder starting construction.

[00:08:26] Do you want to just run us through some of the process?

[00:08:29] Yeah.

[00:08:29] So, I guess there's generally, like, four different sections, I guess.

[00:08:34] First one being feasibility, like, checking, you know, like, the planning certificate, the 88B, getting the survey with all the site constraints, like trees, or is there a power pole at the front of the site, getting the site area, the boundary or the levels.

[00:08:55] So, I guess that's the first stage.

[00:08:59] With that, we tend to get, you know, if the sewer's there, we get a dog before we dig and a sewer peg out.

[00:09:06] There's the, you know, get an ivory support if there's trees or significant trees on the site.

[00:09:12] So, we know what we're working with before we even kind of nut out the brief.

[00:09:20] So, that's the first stage.

[00:09:22] Once we've got all that, then I like to go to have a quick meeting and just go through their brief and sort of what they're expecting out of the site.

[00:09:31] And we can kind of discuss, you know, if there's a tree we'll need to design around that, what the options are for the site.

[00:09:39] Yeah.

[00:09:40] So, that's sort of the first stage.

[00:09:43] Can we just jump in that design meeting?

[00:09:46] So, that initial design meeting with the client, whether that be face-to-face, over Zoom or a combination of the two.

[00:09:53] What, in your experience, you've designed a lot of projects, anything from duplex, townhouse, houses and upwards from there.

[00:10:02] Have you, what are some things you're looking for in a good design brief?

[00:10:06] Like, because obviously a lot of listeners, they're wanting to do projects or they're already doing projects.

[00:10:11] I always say the clearer your brief, the easier it is to hit the mark in terms of a project.

[00:10:17] What are some things you're looking for in a brief, a good design brief from the client?

[00:10:24] I guess the big factor in is keeping it realistic to your site size.

[00:10:31] Yeah.

[00:10:32] As well as the costings is important.

[00:10:35] It's always hard for us to gauge how much it's going to cost when you don't know exactly how many bedrooms and all that.

[00:10:44] Yeah.

[00:10:46] So, I guess as well, another thing would be just keeping it fairly detailed, really.

[00:10:55] Yeah.

[00:10:57] And that's where this meeting comes in as well is we sort of discuss, you know, can we fit all these items on this site?

[00:11:05] Yeah.

[00:11:06] And we kind of adjust the brief.

[00:11:08] And I guess this stage would be called the return brief.

[00:11:11] Yeah.

[00:11:11] So, we kind of take everything that you've given us in the brief and give you some options back and what we think could work and what doesn't work, what doesn't fit.

[00:11:23] Yeah.

[00:11:23] And then kind of move forward from there.

[00:11:25] Yeah.

[00:11:26] But, yeah, just keeping it detailed.

[00:11:29] Don't rush it.

[00:11:30] Just take a weekend to sort of think about everything that you want in that brief.

[00:11:36] Yep.

[00:11:37] Rather than just, you know, rushing it to get things moving.

[00:11:41] Yeah.

[00:11:41] Because it ends up taking more time if you're not putting out what you want.

[00:11:46] Yeah.

[00:11:47] Straight up.

[00:11:48] Yep.

[00:11:48] Have you found that where someone either did, they rushed the brief or they didn't properly sit down and think through what they actually wanted?

[00:11:57] So, you've designed it.

[00:11:58] Then they've gone, oh, changed it.

[00:12:00] Oh, I didn't.

[00:12:01] Got a complete different direction because they just rushed the process too quickly.

[00:12:05] Have you ever, have you come across that much?

[00:12:06] Yeah.

[00:12:07] Yeah.

[00:12:07] A few times.

[00:12:08] Like, it's just, it's like, if it's just very generic and that sort of thing, it's not giving me enough information to sort of outlay the options.

[00:12:20] It's kind of like Chinese whispers.

[00:12:22] It's like, I only know what you tell me.

[00:12:23] Yep.

[00:12:24] Kind of thing.

[00:12:25] Yeah.

[00:12:26] So.

[00:12:26] And I guess if there is a lack of some detail, you can draw that out, I guess.

[00:12:31] Exactly.

[00:12:31] Yep.

[00:12:32] And that's where that first meeting as well is important.

[00:12:35] We're getting those, just clarification on all the items.

[00:12:39] And making sure that we're reading it how you are putting the information together.

[00:12:43] Yep.

[00:12:44] And obviously, it's even more helpful, I'm guessing, too, when they've at least got a builder in mind or they're open to us engaging with the builder.

[00:12:57] Yeah, definitely.

[00:12:58] As well.

[00:12:59] Do you find that, have you found that's been really helpful?

[00:13:01] It is, yeah.

[00:13:02] Especially so much uncertainty around build costs these days?

[00:13:05] Yeah, that's the big thing.

[00:13:06] Like, it's so hard to put a number on something when a builder hasn't looked at it.

[00:13:11] So, if you can get a builder involved early, it saves a lot of changes and, you know, reducing it in size or rather than doing it later when everything's drafted up.

[00:13:24] If you've got consultants done, the structure was done.

[00:13:28] Everything kind of takes time once everything's developed further.

[00:13:32] Yep.

[00:13:33] So, if you get it like a price and a square meter rate is also really handy.

[00:13:37] Yep.

[00:13:38] Yep.

[00:13:39] So, we know what size we're limited to before we proceed so far down the track.

[00:13:44] Yep.

[00:13:44] Yep.

[00:13:45] Now, that's good.

[00:13:46] And I've seen so many DA-approved sites for sale the last couple of years where you look at the development and you think,

[00:13:56] oh, I don't know how they can make money here.

[00:13:58] And obviously, they can't because they're now trying to sell that approved site back to the market.

[00:14:04] Yeah.

[00:14:04] So, yep, I'm with you.

[00:14:06] You'd rather get that right, wouldn't you?

[00:14:08] Yeah.

[00:14:08] Earlier in the piece and by having a builder invested and involved in that process.

[00:14:16] Yeah.

[00:14:16] And that's the hard thing I find as well.

[00:14:18] A lot of builders, which it isn't a great thing, but a lot of builders are not interested early on sometimes because they're not engaged.

[00:14:27] Yes.

[00:14:28] So, I feel like there's a bit of an issue there in the construction industry.

[00:14:32] Yeah.

[00:14:32] Like, I think whether they can do a detailed quote early on or something.

[00:14:38] Yeah.

[00:14:38] Yeah.

[00:14:38] You know, engaged earlier.

[00:14:40] It is a part of the industry, isn't it, that I really hope changes.

[00:14:44] Yeah.

[00:14:45] And I get it.

[00:14:46] Like, the project type volume industry has made it where people shop around so much rather than build loyalty and a good relationship with a builder.

[00:14:56] Exactly.

[00:14:57] Where they can really have a good set idea of, okay, this is my budget.

[00:15:04] Yeah.

[00:15:05] And the builder says, okay, this is what we can do within that budget.

[00:15:08] And then they're invested early.

[00:15:10] Yeah.

[00:15:10] Exactly.

[00:15:11] Yeah.

[00:15:11] It makes a massive difference.

[00:15:13] Especially as well because there's so many, like, the construction industry's boomed and there's lots of, you know, like, the variation between builders is a lot now.

[00:15:24] Yeah.

[00:15:25] You know, it's $300,000.

[00:15:28] Yeah.

[00:15:29] Like, it's a big difference.

[00:15:30] Yeah.

[00:15:31] Yeah, that's right.

[00:15:32] And you don't always know if what they've included in that.

[00:15:36] Exactly.

[00:15:37] It's quite, yeah.

[00:15:38] Like, you're not always comparing apples for apples, I guess.

[00:15:41] Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:42] Yeah, it makes it tricky.

[00:15:44] Yeah.

[00:15:45] So, look, that's a massive one.

[00:15:46] So, you've done the feasibility stacks up.

[00:15:50] You've done those checks.

[00:15:51] You've had that first initial design meeting.

[00:15:54] So, what's that next step then?

[00:15:57] Yep.

[00:15:57] So, the next step is basically we'll go away from that meeting.

[00:16:01] I'll have all the information I need for the site.

[00:16:04] And then I'll just start designing a floor plan mainly.

[00:16:10] So, this is more where everything sits on the site.

[00:16:14] So, you know, do you want the bedrooms at the front or do you want a reverse living or do you want a double garage?

[00:16:20] It's all the items that are sort of listed in the brief.

[00:16:23] Yeah.

[00:16:25] Yeah.

[00:16:25] And where they're positioned on the site and how the building flows.

[00:16:29] I always refer to this saying by Lee Capuzier, form follows function.

[00:16:36] Yes.

[00:16:36] So, function is always the most important part.

[00:16:39] Yeah.

[00:16:39] And the thing that we do first.

[00:16:40] Yeah.

[00:16:41] So, we generally don't do like windows or anything like that.

[00:16:47] Yeah.

[00:16:47] It's just basically a block and where the site constraints are, what the setbacks are.

[00:16:54] Yep.

[00:16:56] And yeah, that's the first sort of stage.

[00:16:58] Yeah.

[00:16:59] Then once that's sort of mapped out, I tend to send it to the client.

[00:17:03] They review it.

[00:17:05] I always say take at least a couple of days to sort of digest it.

[00:17:10] Just, you know, see if it's what you're wanting.

[00:17:13] Have a think about some changes.

[00:17:15] And a markup is always very like handy.

[00:17:19] It gives me a look into sort of what you're thinking for the layout and any little changes.

[00:17:26] Yep.

[00:17:28] And obviously, a lot of design is a visual.

[00:17:31] So, like a markup is a lot better than a list.

[00:17:34] Yes.

[00:17:34] Yeah.

[00:17:35] Two A4 pages of dot points doesn't always cut it.

[00:17:38] Yeah.

[00:17:38] A markup is 20 times better.

[00:17:41] Yep.

[00:17:41] Yeah.

[00:17:42] Yeah, that's right.

[00:17:43] And you hit the nail on the head, but I think you'd really nailed on something there.

[00:17:48] So, taking the time to digest a design because, again, when someone rushes that process or

[00:17:57] they haven't sat down and thought about it, that can really cause delays, I guess, can't

[00:18:01] it?

[00:18:02] It does.

[00:18:02] Like with rework and redesign.

[00:18:04] What are some tips or recommendations even for people who are doing projects, how

[00:18:09] they can get better with their design team and actually really articulate what they want?

[00:18:17] Yeah.

[00:18:18] I guess, like I said, like the visual, like markup is, you know, really helpful.

[00:18:26] But yeah, taking like a couple of days just to make a list of things that you want to change

[00:18:31] even for yourself and then just mark up slightly.

[00:18:37] I guess a lot of clients get really excited and they want to just come up with all these

[00:18:44] changes and they want to get it back as soon as they can so we can keep it moving.

[00:18:47] But I think, yeah, just thinking about it and what little things you want to change just

[00:18:53] makes a big difference.

[00:18:55] Some clients, you know, within 20 minutes, they've got a markup back to me.

[00:18:59] And then, you know, later that day or the next two days, they've got another one.

[00:19:04] They're like, oh, actually, I want to do this.

[00:19:06] Yes.

[00:19:06] And I think it doubles up on our work.

[00:19:09] Yeah.

[00:19:10] But it also doubles up on your work too.

[00:19:13] Yeah.

[00:19:14] Because you're doing two markups.

[00:19:15] You know, you're overthinking it almost.

[00:19:18] Yes.

[00:19:18] Yeah.

[00:19:19] Yeah.

[00:19:20] And I think a lot of people, obviously, at times are a key factor.

[00:19:24] And I think by people, the industry, I guess, understanding how to actually do their piece

[00:19:30] of the puzzle better, digesting the design, thinking it through, marking it up, looking

[00:19:36] at it with fresh eyes.

[00:19:38] You know, the old saying of sending 10 lots of changes back in 10 different emails, the

[00:19:45] problem is, one, you can lose, things get lost in transit.

[00:19:49] Yeah.

[00:19:49] But every time you're having to open the job, save the job, send the job, open the job,

[00:19:54] have you found that that's one of the big killers is actually delays because you've got

[00:19:59] to continually do another revision, another revision, like a two-minute change.

[00:20:07] That doesn't take two minutes, does it?

[00:20:09] No, exactly.

[00:20:10] Like, it looks easy in our program, but you've got to consider if you're moving something

[00:20:14] from the upper floor or the lower floor, it always affects somewhere else in the design.

[00:20:19] Yeah.

[00:20:20] So, everything has to be reconsidered.

[00:20:22] Yeah.

[00:20:22] Like, if you're moving the stair from the ground floor, sometimes that just fully, you know,

[00:20:28] affects the first floor and you have to redesign that area.

[00:20:32] So, it's all like, it's all the pieces coming together in a design that make it work.

[00:20:38] Yeah.

[00:20:38] And if one thing's not working, it often has a bit of a snowball effect and, you know,

[00:20:43] you change one thing and then that changes something else and it just keeps going.

[00:20:47] Yeah.

[00:20:49] And then it can have compliance implications, I guess, can't it?

[00:20:52] Exactly.

[00:20:53] Like, just extending a living area 200 mil.

[00:20:55] Yeah.

[00:20:56] Could change a setback or it could change the GFA or the FSR.

[00:21:00] Yeah.

[00:21:01] Well, I guess that leads to, like, the next part, which is the meeting with the markup.

[00:21:05] Yes.

[00:21:06] So, I guess we sort of then would have a discussion about those changes and it kind of, we can

[00:21:15] go, oh, no, that doesn't comply or, you know, that's taking up too much landscaping.

[00:21:20] That does, that will line up with this one.

[00:21:23] Then you'll need a still beam.

[00:21:26] Just, you know, or this window's too big or you need privacy screening.

[00:21:29] Yeah.

[00:21:30] So, we kind of, that's where the meeting's important because it kind of tells you if it's

[00:21:34] possible or not those changes.

[00:21:36] Yep.

[00:21:37] Yeah.

[00:21:37] Or make sure that the client's considered those changes and how they affect the design.

[00:21:42] Yep.

[00:21:42] So, a meeting with that first initial markup, I guess you'd say, that meeting is very much

[00:21:49] dependent on the feedback and the changes you're getting.

[00:21:52] So, if you're getting changes that you think warrant some conversations with the client about

[00:21:56] the implications, that's where you'll potentially have a meeting.

[00:22:00] Exactly.

[00:22:00] Yep.

[00:22:01] Yep.

[00:22:01] And I'll pretty much always have a meeting.

[00:22:03] I think that first one's the most important.

[00:22:05] Yeah.

[00:22:06] Because kind of, you've got a design there and that's where you can discuss everything

[00:22:11] in more detail.

[00:22:12] Yep.

[00:22:13] Yeah.

[00:22:14] I think for any project, I think at least one meeting, that's the most important one.

[00:22:18] Yep.

[00:22:19] And I guess that's where, I'm sure there's been times where you've had to really sell

[00:22:25] the vision of the reason why you've designed that project to have that particular flow.

[00:22:31] Yeah.

[00:22:31] Whereas someone without a design or possibly is looking at it through possibly a different

[00:22:37] lens.

[00:22:38] Exactly.

[00:22:39] Have you found that that's where that meeting is powerful because you can actually,

[00:22:42] really articulate the why behind the way you've designed a particular project?

[00:22:49] Exactly right.

[00:22:50] Yeah.

[00:22:51] So there was this one example where they had this sort of study at the front and it kind

[00:22:58] of, it was a little bit of an odd shape and a bit narrow and it kind of wasn't working.

[00:23:04] So we ended up sort of just kind of chucking a few ideas around and we ended up with a really

[00:23:10] nice size, sort of almost a bedroom size now.

[00:23:16] So I think that sort of initial meeting and then sort of going through the options, you end

[00:23:26] up with a really good end product.

[00:23:28] Yeah.

[00:23:29] Because you're kind of, yeah, getting all the ideas out of picking which one's best.

[00:23:33] Yep.

[00:23:34] And I think you hit the nail on the head before where you were discussing form and function.

[00:23:38] But it's interesting, isn't it?

[00:23:40] Because a lot of clients, they may be looking at one of those two elements, some both.

[00:23:47] But then you've also got the compliance element too, don't you, in that first initial concept

[00:23:52] design where some clients, and rightly so, that's not their industry.

[00:23:59] Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:59] Some clients are more educated on different levels of compliance.

[00:24:05] Yeah.

[00:24:05] It can be a juggle.

[00:24:07] It is, yeah.

[00:24:09] Yeah.

[00:24:09] The form follows function idea as well.

[00:24:13] I find a lot of clients kind of don't consider the actual form of it as well.

[00:24:23] We always have that in the back of our mind, like how tall is it going to be?

[00:24:27] Yes.

[00:24:27] Yeah, like more from a massing point of view.

[00:24:29] Yeah.

[00:24:30] But on a floor plan, it is sometimes hard to read.

[00:24:33] Yeah.

[00:24:33] So we kind of have to kind of explain that as well in the meeting.

[00:24:40] Because, yeah, a floor plan sometimes doesn't fully show that.

[00:24:43] Yeah.

[00:24:44] Yeah.

[00:24:45] But, yeah, we're always considering the facade and the sort of design when we're doing the

[00:24:51] floor plan as well.

[00:24:52] Yeah.

[00:24:53] Yeah.

[00:24:54] That's right.

[00:24:54] And they might only get a couple of pages in that first initial concept, whether it be

[00:24:59] a site layout and the floor plans.

[00:25:02] Yeah.

[00:25:03] A lot more has happened behind the scenes than, I guess, what's printed on a piece of paper,

[00:25:08] isn't it?

[00:25:08] Yeah, exactly.

[00:25:09] Do you want to walk us through the next stage?

[00:25:11] So the clients, you've got that floor layout right.

[00:25:15] You've checked it for compliance.

[00:25:18] They've come back with their markups.

[00:25:19] You've had that meeting.

[00:25:20] You've made those changes.

[00:25:24] They're really happy with it.

[00:25:26] Yeah.

[00:25:26] Where are we at then?

[00:25:27] So then this stage is where we sort of, we develop some elevations.

[00:25:32] We install windows.

[00:25:36] We look at materials.

[00:25:39] And sometimes like the overall shape changes a little bit.

[00:25:45] So the floor plan is not always locked in at that point.

[00:25:47] But if we want to just kind of tweak it a little bit to get a certain look, that happens fairly often.

[00:25:55] Yeah.

[00:25:57] So we sort of also look at the roof line, how it sort of works, what sort of look they're after.

[00:26:05] So, you know, a lot of the time there's, you know, you could do the flat roof or you could do the pitched sort of Scandi barn look, which is, we do a lot.

[00:26:15] There's also just the conventional hip and valley.

[00:26:20] So it really depends.

[00:26:22] And that's the thing that we need, we always consider when we're doing the floor plan is making sure that all works as well.

[00:26:30] Yeah.

[00:26:31] Without presenting it to you, I guess.

[00:26:33] Yeah.

[00:26:34] Because the focus is the floor plan.

[00:26:36] Yeah.

[00:26:37] At this stage, then we do some 3Ds as well.

[00:26:42] And we basically then sort of come to a bit more of a concluded design.

[00:26:50] So like by this stage, you'll have like full floor plan, site plan, elevations, 3Ds, enough to sort of go, yep, that's the design I like and that I want to do.

[00:27:03] I generally have a meeting with the client if they're sort of what have a few questions or they want to make a few little tweaks on materials generally.

[00:27:17] But sometimes the client's just happy with it and we just sort of move to the next stage after that.

[00:27:22] Yep.

[00:27:23] Yeah.

[00:27:24] Yeah, okay.

[00:27:25] So that's the design development stage.

[00:27:27] And I guess at that stage you can, if someone wants to, I guess that's where you can get some sort of high level estimates.

[00:27:38] Obviously, you're not going to get a builder to be able to fully tender a project off concept, like detailed concept drawings.

[00:27:47] But essentially, you can get a good high level estimate.

[00:27:51] And I guess you can even send it to a couple of real estate agents if you were looking to sell the product too.

[00:27:56] I guess the agent can give you some feedback, I guess, as well.

[00:27:59] Yeah, that's the other thing.

[00:28:02] I guess we also do a bit of an area plan.

[00:28:04] So it shows how much floor space you're taking up.

[00:28:07] Yep.

[00:28:08] Which then can be compared to like a square meter rate for the builder.

[00:28:15] Depends on what sort of finish you're after, if it's a high end or mid spec.

[00:28:21] Yep.

[00:28:22] But generally, it lands at around three and a half thousand square meter.

[00:28:27] Yep.

[00:28:29] So that can kind of give you a bit of a guide on what sort of ballpark figure you're working with.

[00:28:34] Yep.

[00:28:36] But it's always hard.

[00:28:37] It always changes with each builder.

[00:28:39] Yeah.

[00:28:39] Yeah, that's right.

[00:28:40] Yeah, it depends on build to build.

[00:28:42] And I guess that's where having a builder involved early in the process is great.

[00:28:46] Because along the way, they can speak into the design.

[00:28:50] As well, once we've got this sort of stage done, it's not fully detailed.

[00:28:54] So this is sort of the time where if the builder was to give some feedback, you know, it's not too hard for us to change.

[00:29:01] Yes.

[00:29:02] It's not going to take us as much time.

[00:29:04] Yep.

[00:29:05] So this is sort of the stage to do that.

[00:29:08] Yeah.

[00:29:09] You know, if it's too big or, you know, there's a roof line that could be simplified.

[00:29:14] Yep.

[00:29:15] Or, you know, material's too expensive, we can always change that at this stage.

[00:29:19] Yep.

[00:29:19] And that's the best time to do that.

[00:29:21] Yeah.

[00:29:22] Yeah, that's right.

[00:29:23] It's a lot cheaper, isn't it, to change concept drawings than full construction drawings or worse, change on site when it's half built.

[00:29:32] Yeah.

[00:29:32] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:29:33] Yeah.

[00:29:34] Even having to get consultants to update theirs.

[00:29:36] So like, you know, having to get the structural engineer to update theirs and the basics and the landscape.

[00:29:43] Yeah.

[00:29:44] You know, that all takes time and money.

[00:29:47] Yeah.

[00:29:47] Yeah.

[00:29:48] Yeah.

[00:29:48] So yeah, now is the perfect time.

[00:29:51] Yeah.

[00:29:52] No, this is really good.

[00:29:53] And I think the more people who are doing projects understand this process, I think the better.

[00:30:00] Because I think a lot of it's just purely because people don't understand the implications of the process.

[00:30:08] And so then you can get a client that gets frustrated purely because they don't understand the process.

[00:30:13] They don't understand, hey, it's actually more than just lines on a piece of paper.

[00:30:18] Actually, a lot of thought goes into this.

[00:30:21] And even understanding why the implications of, you know, consultants having to change documentation and things can add some additional costs.

[00:30:30] Although it may not be a huge amount, it still can add up.

[00:30:32] And I think if someone doing projects understands this process, they can realise the importance of actually take that time.

[00:30:42] And sometimes I think people that as soon as they've ticked off that concept design, they love it.

[00:30:50] They're invested in it.

[00:30:51] They're emotionally loving it.

[00:30:53] Some people just want to move it really quickly then to approval without maybe getting it priced up or having a town planner look at it.

[00:31:02] Just for a compliance check or certifier.

[00:31:06] Have you seen that sometimes where people rush, rush, rush rather than get it priced up or do a few of those things?

[00:31:15] It saves you time in the long run having to change it anyway.

[00:31:18] Exactly.

[00:31:19] Yeah, you end up with people that they're in such a big rush that they're straight on to consultants.

[00:31:24] They're doing all the work.

[00:31:27] We're pretty much ready to get approval.

[00:31:29] And then it goes to a builder and they're going, oh, you know, it's 100 grand over their budget.

[00:31:35] And then we have to cut back.

[00:31:37] So, you know, it holds up the approval stage.

[00:31:40] Yep.

[00:31:41] And then, you know, for us to do the changes takes time.

[00:31:46] Yep.

[00:31:46] And then once our changes are done, then it goes to consultants.

[00:31:48] So it's like very much a time game.

[00:31:52] And then because you've rushed, you're actually taking more time to do it.

[00:31:56] Yeah, that's right.

[00:31:56] Whereas if you follow the process, you end up in the long run being quicker.

[00:32:01] Further ahead.

[00:32:02] Yeah.

[00:32:02] No, you're spot on.

[00:32:04] It's key, isn't it?

[00:32:05] And I get it.

[00:32:06] Like we live in a world now where unfortunately a lot of people are that microwave world now where we just want everything so quick.

[00:32:15] But processes are in place for a reason.

[00:32:19] Yeah.

[00:32:20] And I guess it can be tricky to articulate that because I'm sure you'd know from a designer point of view, you don't have the time in your day to have to educate every client on all the ins and outs.

[00:32:36] But I guess episodes like this are perfect and that's why it's great to have you on because I think for the industry to understand the process and the design process and the reasons why.

[00:32:48] It's not just this.

[00:32:49] It's not about this is how you do it or this is how we do it, but this is why we do it this way.

[00:32:56] Yeah.

[00:32:56] Like we do so many projects that, you know, we've slowly sort of adapted this process as well.

[00:33:01] Like for these reasons.

[00:33:04] Yeah.

[00:33:04] Like it's not just something we came up with.

[00:33:07] Yeah.

[00:33:08] It's like we've moulded it over time to kind of be the quickest way.

[00:33:12] Yeah.

[00:33:12] And the most efficient way.

[00:33:14] Yep.

[00:33:14] And the most cost effective way.

[00:33:16] Yeah.

[00:33:17] That's right.

[00:33:18] And I think, I don't know if the stat's correct, but I have heard this stat that 60 or 70% of DAs for development based projects don't get built.

[00:33:30] And I think a lot of that, not all, some comes down to the fact that someone may not be able to get financed.

[00:33:36] But I think a good chunk of that is because it doesn't stack up.

[00:33:42] And I know a lot of that can be because someone doesn't want to get it priced up or hasn't priced it up in that early phase.

[00:33:51] So, but at the same time, I guess you've, you probably find that.

[00:33:56] Do you find it sometimes at the end of the day, the client will do what they want to do?

[00:34:01] Have you, do you find sometimes you've just, you can give advice, but sometimes people are just going to make their own decisions and do things their way.

[00:34:09] Yeah. And I guess there's like a, every client's different.

[00:34:13] Some are very like trusting and they want to follow the process and how we do it.

[00:34:18] They trust our expertise in how things are designed.

[00:34:22] There's also clients who are very specific on what they want.

[00:34:26] And I guess it's finding that balance between like helping them get to a good design product and allowing them to do their own sort of design aspect.

[00:34:37] So there's always a grade, like find a lot of developers, especially repeat developers that we've worked with.

[00:34:45] They kind of, they built the trust and the relationship with us that they kind of allow us to kind of just design what we think suits best.

[00:34:55] Yeah.

[00:34:56] And trust that we, you know, are able to deliver a good product.

[00:35:01] Yeah. Yep.

[00:35:02] And I've even seen firsthand where, I've seen it firsthand with you, where you've seen projects where you've said to the client, look, I feel you've gone a little bit big on this.

[00:35:12] You've sort of, you know, worn them along the process.

[00:35:15] But some people have, I guess, said, I'm happy to wear that.

[00:35:21] I want this.

[00:35:22] Now they've visualized it.

[00:35:23] They've seen it.

[00:35:24] Yeah.

[00:35:25] So I guess at the same time, it's their project, I guess, isn't it?

[00:35:30] Yeah.

[00:35:30] It's a hard one.

[00:35:31] It is.

[00:35:31] You'll say your piece if you feel that you've stretched it out in terms of their budget.

[00:35:36] Yeah.

[00:35:36] But I guess people make their decisions.

[00:35:39] Yeah.

[00:35:39] And some people really love designing.

[00:35:42] Like it is fun.

[00:35:43] Yeah.

[00:35:43] Yeah.

[00:35:44] Which is why I've done it.

[00:35:45] Like I enjoy designing.

[00:35:46] It's enjoyable.

[00:35:47] And a lot of clients are the same.

[00:35:49] They love designing.

[00:35:50] Yep.

[00:35:51] But I think some people get too excited and, you know, it depends what your purpose is.

[00:35:56] If it's an investment for like a profit, then sometimes it's good to just step back and let us sort of design it.

[00:36:04] Yep.

[00:36:05] Because it does.

[00:36:07] We have done this so many times that it's sort of we deliver a good product.

[00:36:11] Yeah.

[00:36:12] That's within the budget.

[00:36:14] Whereas if you're, you know, too invested and you're too emotionally attached to it,

[00:36:18] sometimes it can, you know, go a bit over budget and a bit more expensive.

[00:36:23] Yes.

[00:36:24] Go bigger than what, you know, the site allows sometimes.

[00:36:27] Yep.

[00:36:28] Yep.

[00:36:30] Excellent.

[00:36:30] So I guess in the perfect scenario, you've done that design development.

[00:36:37] They've picked the colours, elevations, roofline.

[00:36:40] You've made the tweaks.

[00:36:41] In a perfect world, they've chatted with their builder.

[00:36:44] Pricing's come back.

[00:36:45] If it needs to be, some adaptions need to be made.

[00:36:48] They're made in a perfect world.

[00:36:51] If they're selling it, they've spoken to a couple of agents.

[00:36:53] Everything's sitting well.

[00:36:54] Maybe a little bit of feedback's come from the agent.

[00:36:57] So that's all now been locked away.

[00:36:59] That's been done.

[00:37:00] What's the next step in the process?

[00:37:03] Yeah.

[00:37:03] So the next step is, I just call it the consultant's phase.

[00:37:07] So this is where we send our drawings to all our consultants, which is generally the Zbasics,

[00:37:15] which is the thermal consultant.

[00:37:17] So they specify your windows and your insulation, all the wall types.

[00:37:24] It's like this big sort of algorithm that specifies what type of insulation you need.

[00:37:32] Yep.

[00:37:34] So that often, we sort of collaborate on that.

[00:37:37] Do we reduce the glazing to get the heating better?

[00:37:41] Get it more efficient?

[00:37:44] Yep.

[00:37:45] And then, you know, like all the appliances, is there gas?

[00:37:49] Is it electrical?

[00:37:51] Is it solar?

[00:37:53] And so that's sort of where we sort of chat with the client and see what they want.

[00:37:59] For those sort of things, we try and reduce the, or increase the efficiency of the building.

[00:38:08] Yeah.

[00:38:09] With the consultant.

[00:38:11] And then there's also structural and stormwater.

[00:38:15] Again, we sort of collaborate with them and sort of see where we can reduce costs sometimes.

[00:38:22] Can we get rid of a steel beam?

[00:38:24] Can we, you know, do a different type of wall system that's going to save you money?

[00:38:32] And make sure it all kind of corresponds.

[00:38:35] Same with stormwater.

[00:38:38] Does it need an easement?

[00:38:39] Can we get it all to the front?

[00:38:41] What sort of rainwater tank size do you need?

[00:38:44] So it's all about kind of making all the drawings correspond.

[00:38:48] Yep.

[00:38:49] Then there's landscape.

[00:38:51] And then, obviously, a town planner who checks all the compliance and writes an essay or statement of environmental effects.

[00:38:59] So I guess our role in that is to sort of collaborate between those consultants.

[00:39:04] And make sure that it's all consistent and corresponds together.

[00:39:08] Yep.

[00:39:09] So essentially, yeah, those consultants can obviously require then potential additional updates, tweaks, changes, documentation.

[00:39:20] Yep.

[00:39:20] Exactly.

[00:39:21] A classic example, the other day I'd specified an under driveway rainwater tank.

[00:39:28] But due to the steepness of the site, we ended up having to do an above ground OSD.

[00:39:34] Yep.

[00:39:35] And so we collaborated with the engineers.

[00:39:38] We ended up coming up with a solution that it's a combined rainwater tank and OSD.

[00:39:44] Yeah.

[00:39:44] And so this sort of, it looks like a normal rainwater tank, but it sort of ticks the box of the OSD.

[00:39:51] Yeah.

[00:39:52] And that's a classic example of just making decisions based off each sort of area that needs to be done.

[00:40:02] Yeah.

[00:40:02] And it would have been a cost saver too, doing that system versus an OSD.

[00:40:07] So having good consultants.

[00:40:09] Exactly.

[00:40:10] Do you find that's a key thing too?

[00:40:12] Having good consultants at that level is very key, ones that understand collaboration.

[00:40:17] Exactly.

[00:40:18] Exactly.

[00:40:18] Yeah.

[00:40:19] It's so important and helpful.

[00:40:22] Like all our consultants, I know I can give them a call and they'll get back to me or, you

[00:40:27] know, we can sort of come up with a solution.

[00:40:30] If there's any changes, you know, they're right onto it.

[00:40:33] And it's a quick thing.

[00:40:35] Yep.

[00:40:36] Yeah.

[00:40:36] And communication.

[00:40:37] Yeah.

[00:40:38] That's the big thing.

[00:40:39] We're always sort of emailing back and forth, options, questions, just to make sure that

[00:40:46] everything's corresponding.

[00:40:48] Yep.

[00:40:49] And it's, I guess a lot of, there are investors and developers out there who, it's rare, but

[00:40:57] some like to manage it themselves.

[00:40:59] But I think very quickly realised that it is a phase where it's important.

[00:41:05] Design consultant is important, that collaboration.

[00:41:07] And the moment you take that away, projects, it can be tricky because like you said, communication

[00:41:13] is so key.

[00:41:14] Yeah.

[00:41:15] When you get cut out of the communication, it can be really difficult.

[00:41:20] Yeah.

[00:41:21] And I guess it's probably, to the everyday person, it can probably be overwhelming dealing

[00:41:26] with so many consultants.

[00:41:27] Yeah, it's a lot.

[00:41:28] It is.

[00:41:29] Yeah.

[00:41:29] But I guess, have you found the more you've worked on projects, you've found that that becomes

[00:41:36] a little bit second nature?

[00:41:38] Have you ever found that?

[00:41:39] Yeah.

[00:41:39] Yeah.

[00:41:39] Like I'm always learning new things.

[00:41:40] Like the OSD and rainwater tank combination.

[00:41:44] Yeah.

[00:41:44] That was a thing, to be honest.

[00:41:46] Yep.

[00:41:46] So, you know, there's always like new things I'm learning.

[00:41:51] And I guess that's the thing with architecture.

[00:41:53] It's something you're always learning.

[00:41:55] And there's so many different disciplinary areas within our industry that, you know, you're

[00:42:02] always learning no matter how long you've been in the industry.

[00:42:06] Yeah.

[00:42:07] Yeah.

[00:42:08] Excellent.

[00:42:08] So, we've now, all of the consultants have come back.

[00:42:12] They've done their initial documentation.

[00:42:14] That's reflected on those updated drawings.

[00:42:19] So, what's our next step?

[00:42:21] Where's that moving into then?

[00:42:23] Now, it's all sort of packaged up as one sort of folder with everything that's needed for

[00:42:29] the either DA or the CDC approval.

[00:42:33] Yep.

[00:42:33] So, then this would either get lodged with the council on the portal or with the certifier.

[00:42:40] So, I'll explain the DA process first.

[00:42:43] So, once it's lodged on the portal, we then go through the admin stage.

[00:42:47] So, if there's anything that they'd like to add or like us to add, example, some notes

[00:42:53] on the drawings or an extra consultant maybe, they'll send through a letter and we'll just

[00:43:00] address that.

[00:43:01] Yep.

[00:43:02] So, then it goes to notification stage.

[00:43:05] So, that's where your neighbours will get a little sort of drawing with the site plan

[00:43:10] and some elevations.

[00:43:11] Yep.

[00:43:11] That normally takes about a month and they get an opportunity to object or give an opinion

[00:43:17] on it.

[00:43:18] Yep.

[00:43:19] Then after that, the town planner will do their assessment, taking into consideration the

[00:43:25] objections.

[00:43:26] Yes.

[00:43:27] Pretty much every project has some sort of RFI.

[00:43:31] Yeah.

[00:43:31] I think I've had like one or two that haven't, which is pretty rare.

[00:43:34] Yeah.

[00:43:34] But there's always something.

[00:43:36] So, that's where we sort of address the concerns of the town planner and the neighbours notification

[00:43:44] or the objections.

[00:43:46] Yep.

[00:43:48] And depending on that, if you're pushing the envelope and you've got variations, sometimes

[00:43:55] the RFI is a bit more than like the usual.

[00:43:59] Yeah.

[00:44:00] I guess.

[00:44:01] Whereas if it's fairly compliant and we've followed the process and everything's, you know, compliant,

[00:44:08] we've got all the information there.

[00:44:10] It's normally just a few little bits and pieces like notes on the drawings or, you know, little

[00:44:17] tweaks here and there.

[00:44:18] Yeah.

[00:44:18] Maybe like a Windows.

[00:44:19] They've got privacy concerns.

[00:44:21] Yeah.

[00:44:21] For example, we need a privacy screen.

[00:44:24] And once that's done, then it'll go to peer review and then they would review it and then

[00:44:33] a DA approval is issued.

[00:44:35] Yep.

[00:44:37] Then for CDC.

[00:44:39] So, then this would go to the private certifier, which is a lot easier.

[00:44:44] You also include your structurals in this.

[00:44:46] Yeah.

[00:44:47] Whereas DA, we don't normally do that.

[00:44:49] Yeah.

[00:44:49] What about the documentation?

[00:44:50] Just the documentation, the difference between like a DA set of architectures versus a CC

[00:44:59] or slash CDC?

[00:45:01] Is there much difference?

[00:45:02] I guess a CDC is like a combination of the two.

[00:45:06] Yeah.

[00:45:06] So, normally you do a DA and CC, but there's a new sort of pathway that's come around in

[00:45:15] the last few years, CDC, which we do a lot of, which is so good.

[00:45:20] Yeah.

[00:45:21] A lot faster.

[00:45:22] A lot faster.

[00:45:22] It's like one combined application.

[00:45:25] Yeah.

[00:45:26] And that goes through the certifier.

[00:45:28] So, yeah, you have your structurals and fully detailed construction drawings.

[00:45:33] And then that goes to the certifier and they have a look over.

[00:45:37] They act as like the town planner, I suppose.

[00:45:40] Yep.

[00:45:40] And check off the compliance.

[00:45:42] Yep.

[00:45:42] This doesn't go to notification.

[00:45:45] So, none of your neighbors see the plans.

[00:45:47] Yep.

[00:45:48] Which is also good.

[00:45:50] And then they may have a few little things like notes on the plans or that sort of thing.

[00:45:56] And then it's approved.

[00:45:57] Yeah.

[00:45:57] And, you know, it's such a like quicker process.

[00:46:00] Yeah.

[00:46:00] They can start construction.

[00:46:02] Yeah.

[00:46:02] And what about a DA set of architecturals that essentially you don't need a lot of the as

[00:46:08] much detailed dimensions?

[00:46:10] You don't need a lot of that extra detail do you on the DA set?

[00:46:13] Nah, it's generally what I do is like the internal dimensions and then just an overall.

[00:46:19] Yeah.

[00:46:20] And then just building heights and stuff like that.

[00:46:23] Yep.

[00:46:24] Building envelope setbacks.

[00:46:27] It's fairly basic.

[00:46:29] Yep.

[00:46:29] You don't need to know your material types.

[00:46:31] Yeah.

[00:46:33] You need like a finishes schedule.

[00:46:36] But, yeah, it's fairly basic.

[00:46:38] Yeah.

[00:46:39] It's somewhere in between construction and concept.

[00:46:42] Yep.

[00:46:42] I would say.

[00:46:43] Yeah.

[00:46:43] Yeah.

[00:46:44] Yep.

[00:46:45] Excellent.

[00:46:45] And then, you know, obviously, so CDC is great.

[00:46:48] It's like a DA and a CC all together.

[00:46:51] Ready to go.

[00:46:52] Start construction.

[00:46:53] DA, so you get your – you've gone through that process of DA, like you said.

[00:46:59] You get your – you might get an RFI or two, sometimes even more.

[00:47:05] You get that approval.

[00:47:07] So then you get your DA stamp plans and you get that consent.

[00:47:12] So what happens after you get that consent?

[00:47:15] Where is that one at?

[00:47:17] So once you've got your DA approval, that's when you need the certifier involved.

[00:47:21] Yes.

[00:47:22] So we generally get the structurals done and then another set of plans that are up to construction standards.

[00:47:30] This is where they're kind of – they're similar to CDC plans.

[00:47:33] Yep.

[00:47:33] So then it would go to the certifier.

[00:47:38] We also get the notice of determination, which has the DA conditions.

[00:47:45] Yep.

[00:47:45] So often the town planner will write up a list of conditions for approval.

[00:47:49] Yep.

[00:47:49] So an example of this would be, you know, something that they want us to change.

[00:47:57] Maybe the window needs a privacy screen.

[00:48:00] Yeah.

[00:48:00] Or just little things.

[00:48:04] Or you need some sort of report by a consultant.

[00:48:10] And then once we address all that in the CDC plans, then it goes to certifier and they'll issue a construction certificate.

[00:48:17] Yep.

[00:48:17] And that's where you'd start building.

[00:48:19] Yeah.

[00:48:20] Excellent.

[00:48:21] Excellent.

[00:48:21] And look, obviously they're – so they're the steps and the parts of the process involved in getting approval for construction.

[00:48:31] And I guess there's probably two other phases we might just really quickly brush over just for time's sake.

[00:48:36] But maybe you can just touch on like detailed documentation for tender and to minimise variations in the interior design because that's also something that –

[00:48:48] Yep.

[00:48:49] Although you might not do the interior design, you've got access.

[00:48:52] We've got access to that service and a lot more people are going down that pathway now to get a lot more accurate and detailed information.

[00:49:01] Yep.

[00:49:01] Do you want to just run us through that process and I guess the importance of why that you're finding that is critical and can be critical in sort of maybe nicer spec projects?

[00:49:13] Yeah.

[00:49:13] So like full tender drawings, generally speaking, this sort of allows you to lock in all your finishes and all the extra detail that you don't get with CC drawings or CC drawings.

[00:49:30] Yep.

[00:49:30] It's kind of another level on top of that.

[00:49:33] So we'll do like wet area, variations, you know, like the kitchen layout, all the fixtures, all the floor finishes.

[00:49:46] Yeah.

[00:49:47] You could go on for –

[00:49:49] Yeah.

[00:49:49] You could do as much detail as you want.

[00:49:51] Depending on the site.

[00:49:52] Yeah.

[00:49:53] And I guess the advantage of this is that you're not discussing this sort of stuff on site with your builder.

[00:49:59] Yes.

[00:50:00] It's kind of all already determined before you even start digging.

[00:50:04] Yep.

[00:50:04] It's ready to go.

[00:50:05] There's no variations from the builder.

[00:50:07] Yep.

[00:50:07] It's all sort of laid out exactly how you want it.

[00:50:10] Yep.

[00:50:10] So it sort of protects your client in a way, doesn't it?

[00:50:13] Yeah.

[00:50:13] Yeah.

[00:50:13] So like extra costs don't come up.

[00:50:16] Yeah.

[00:50:16] Yeah.

[00:50:16] Unexpected.

[00:50:18] It also allows you to kind of step back from the building process.

[00:50:23] Yes.

[00:50:24] You're not having to go inside and, you know, have meetings with a builder and say, oh, I want this bench top, for example.

[00:50:30] Yeah.

[00:50:30] Or, you know, these taps or this vanity.

[00:50:32] It's already determined.

[00:50:33] It's all factored in.

[00:50:34] It is, yeah.

[00:50:35] And I guess interior design, I guess, would be a similar reason.

[00:50:38] Yeah, that ties in as well.

[00:50:40] Like you'd have your interior designer pick out a lot of these things.

[00:50:44] So like all the materials, the fixtures, and we like to compile into, you know, one big document.

[00:50:52] And yeah, again, it sort of saves variations on site and everything's sort of figured out before you even start building.

[00:50:59] Yep.

[00:51:00] This also helps because you can get a full proper quote from a builder with everything that's in the plans.

[00:51:07] Yep.

[00:51:08] So no unexpected costs.

[00:51:10] Yep.

[00:51:11] And I guess it probably enables, minimizes discrepancies on site.

[00:51:17] Yeah, exactly.

[00:51:18] Yeah.

[00:51:19] Yeah, it's good.

[00:51:22] Yeah.

[00:51:23] Basically, you can't go wrong with it.

[00:51:25] Yep.

[00:51:26] You're doing it on site anyway.

[00:51:28] Yeah.

[00:51:28] So it's better to have it all in one document.

[00:51:31] Yep.

[00:51:31] I think.

[00:51:32] Yeah.

[00:51:33] No, it's good.

[00:51:34] Well, look, we might wrap it up there.

[00:51:35] I think this has been an incredible episode.

[00:51:39] I think it's so important for investors and developers to really get a firm understanding of a design process because I think it makes that designer-client relationship strong and firm.

[00:51:53] Communication, as you said, is hugely key.

[00:51:55] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:57] And it leaves nothing to the imagination.

[00:51:59] Have you got maybe just one last thought, just something you want to share just around that design process, just something to give a little bit of value?

[00:52:09] Is there something you want to wrap us up with?

[00:52:11] Yeah, I guess just trusting your designer, allowing them to sort of provide a good product and listen to their ideas.

[00:52:23] Sometimes they might not be exactly what you're wanting, but at the end of the day, we're trying to produce a good product for your design so it's profitable and that it's what you're after.

[00:52:34] So we want to meet somewhere in the middle where it's both a good product and it's what you want.

[00:52:39] Yeah.

[00:52:40] Brilliant.

[00:52:40] Brilliant.

[00:52:41] Well, it's been good to have you on.

[00:52:42] I'm sure we'll get you back to talk about another design-related element.

[00:52:46] Yeah.

[00:52:47] So thanks for coming in.

[00:52:48] And look, if you got a lot out of this episode, I'm sure that there's a lot of people listening to this today where you've just got a tonne load of value out of Blake unpacking that design process.

[00:53:00] Look, all of our details will be in the show notes, even if you want to work with Blake or pick his brain.

[00:53:07] Again, all of our duplex building designs details will be in the show notes.

[00:53:11] Once again, I want to thank you for listening.

[00:53:13] If you've got a lot of value out of this, feel free to like, share, subscribe.

[00:53:17] Share this with friends, family, investors, people that want to go on that journey of doing projects because I think the more people understand this process, I think it'll make the industry a lot less stress-free and will enable you to just trust the process and go on that journey.

[00:53:32] Thanks for listening.

[00:53:33] We'll see you next week.