Stormwater Solutions That Can Make or Break Your Development with Daniel Salah of Vanguard Consulting Engineers

[00:00:04] Well, thanks for jumping into another episode. My name's Nathan Battishall. I'm the host of the Residential Developer Podcast and I've been really excited for a while. Today, I'm really privileged to have the team from Vanguard Consulting Engineers. I've got Daniel and Min with me today. Welcome to the podcast, guys.

[00:00:23] Thanks, Nathan. Thank you for having us.

[00:00:25] Yeah, good to have you guys in. Look, maybe just to kick us off, do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourselves and maybe a little bit about Vanguard, what you guys specialize in?

[00:00:34] Yeah, so Vanguard is an engineering consultancy business. It's fairly new, as you would know. We did a merger in the early year, beginning of the year with a colleague of mine and we've kind of combined our team together. We kind of offer civil, structural and stormwater design for residential projects, commercial projects, any kind of development actually.

[00:01:03] And Min is one of our senior civil, and Min is one of our senior civil stormwater engineers. That's in our team at the moment. And I was, at the beginning, a structural engineer, but I've kind of merged into helping Min with the civil and the stormwater department of the company.

[00:01:20] And, yeah, so that's a bit about us, to be honest. You know, Min handles all the, you know, all the stormwater part of things, flooding, civil, and he does quite a big range of projects, anywhere from a granny flat up to, you know, class two buildings, multi-residential. And yeah, that's pretty much us.

[00:01:40] Excellent. What about yourselves? How long have you guys been in the game? How long have you been practising as engineers?

[00:01:48] I've been an engineer, I would say, for about eight years now. Yeah.

[00:01:54] Started when my early 20s, during my uni period and graduated and continued working full time.

[00:02:01] Yeah, been in the industry for eight years, but in engineering, but construction I've been for a while because I was doing work throughout uni, working for as a labourer and understanding how things work.

[00:02:12] Yeah, but I would say about eight years. Min, how about yourself?

[00:02:15] For me, so I've been in the industry for about seven years now. Yeah, so similar to Daniel's, I started off in my early 20s as the stormwater engineer and then started to transition into civil and flooding related projects.

[00:02:30] Yeah, so I've done a fair bit of projects from like most of the simple ones, like granny flat up to like industrial warehouse and class two building, those sort of developments, yeah.

[00:02:40] Excellent. That's really good. Look, I think stormwater's obviously for today and I think there'll be episodes where we can talk about structural, flooding, all different elements, but stormwater's a really key one.

[00:02:53] Obviously our listeners are developers, investors, mums and dads doing development-based projects, whether it be duplexes, townhouses, dual locks, granny flats, anything investment development-based.

[00:03:06] And stormwater's a big key thing and especially in that initial due diligence period, finding a site, securing a site.

[00:03:14] And, you know, for me stormwater can obviously make or break a site.

[00:03:18] Oh, yeah, definitely.

[00:03:19] Have you, I guess, have you guys found that that's a really key factor when it comes to initially due diligence period?

[00:03:27] Like do you guys do much around that side of it, helping advise people before they buy a site just to check it, check the site out for, you know, that it can be drained from a stormwater point of view?

[00:03:37] Yeah, yeah, we do get quite a lot of developers and clients that we've had a long-term working relationship with them.

[00:03:44] You know, initially I've always kind of guided them, you know, before you buy a site, first things first, just get the 10.7 planning certificate where you get from council.

[00:03:54] That will kind of stipulate whether if it's flood affected or not.

[00:03:58] And also a title search is critical and these items generally come with contract of sale.

[00:04:04] Yes.

[00:04:05] And we always tell them, you know, first things first, you know, check these two items because the title search can show that there's a possibility an easement that's on the property.

[00:04:14] Yes.

[00:04:15] And that comes really important when the site drains to the rear with a natural slope back to the back.

[00:04:23] However, there's been some scenarios where the developer has kind of sent me the 10 title search like, oh, great, I've got an easement.

[00:04:31] And I've had a look.

[00:04:32] I'm like, yeah, be careful because it's burdened to your lot.

[00:04:36] Yes.

[00:04:36] They weren't benefited to the lot, which was quite critical.

[00:04:39] Yes.

[00:04:39] And he was like, you know, very grateful for like how we picked that up for him.

[00:04:43] And I always find that, you know, those two general little two items can make a big difference.

[00:04:48] Yep.

[00:04:49] Just those little two items can tell you a lot, you know.

[00:04:52] Yeah.

[00:04:52] Especially being the 10.7 can tell you whether if it's a low risk, medium risk, high risk.

[00:04:58] And depending on the flood catchment, it actually gives you the report that they've done the analysis on.

[00:05:02] Yep.

[00:05:02] And then me and myself, you know, would sometimes go and dig into that catchment and that flood report and just see how heavily flood affected it is.

[00:05:10] Yes.

[00:05:12] Generally, when it's a high risk area, you won't be able to do a CDC depending on, you know, the impact of the flood on the lot.

[00:05:21] But, yeah, generally we always try to tell our developer and our good clients that we work with, anything you need, just let us know.

[00:05:28] Just get these two items for us.

[00:05:29] And then being if it is flood affected, we're always like we do understand there's a flood report that can get a good indication.

[00:05:37] But if they can take that step further and order the flood advice letter from council, that would give us the site-specific, you know, flood impact on the whole site, which is generally, you know, the best possible result that we could get.

[00:05:49] Yep.

[00:05:51] And, yeah, that's I would probably say that's it.

[00:05:53] No, it's good.

[00:05:54] Most essential.

[00:05:55] That's good.

[00:05:55] And I think you hit on something there and I just want to backtrack to that.

[00:05:58] So I think that was really good advice and I think obviously most people who are acquiring a site, they do have access to a contract of sale.

[00:06:06] If it's someone who already owns the site, well, I always say to people like it's not worth risking spending thousands and hundreds of thousands doing a development when you're not willing to spend a couple of hundred dollars to buy those reports.

[00:06:21] Like we're talking $10.7, $160 odd dollars, a cert of title, maybe $35, deposited plan.

[00:06:29] Like there's three or four documents obviously very key and even that flood certificate.

[00:06:34] Some councils it's even free now but normally it's maybe $100 roughly.

[00:06:38] Yeah.

[00:06:39] It's worth it, isn't it?

[00:06:41] Like to spend that little bit of money on those reports so that you can get thorough due diligence.

[00:06:46] Honestly, I couldn't agree more.

[00:06:48] It could make a big impact.

[00:06:50] You know, we've had $10.7 saying like the flood was a low risk and then we got them to order the flood advice and that the low risk was more predominantly on the neighbour and then they were more to a medium.

[00:07:04] And sometimes just making that, you know, paying that fee of $100, $150 can make a big, big difference because that can save you in the long run.

[00:07:13] And sometimes people are so confident that, yeah, you can do a CDC but then when they see the flood advice, that could change the whole thing.

[00:07:20] Yep.

[00:07:20] And then the whole design could change because the design controls are different in terms of planning and, you know, your side of things.

[00:07:25] Yeah, that's right.

[00:07:26] Right.

[00:07:26] And then I guess there are some people that only want to do CDCs or some people that are happy to do DA but then need to obviously get a longer settlement maybe on the side.

[00:07:37] Of course, of course.

[00:07:38] So by getting that, by knowing that early on, it's key, massively key.

[00:07:43] Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:43] Now, just quickly, again, I just want to backtrack.

[00:07:45] Greg, you brought up something about the – on the sort of title or about how an easement can be burdened or a benefit to that property.

[00:07:56] Do you want to just really high level, just quickly run people through that?

[00:08:00] Because I think it's important for developers, investors when they are looking at a contract or at those planning documents to understand that.

[00:08:07] Obviously, it's good to rely on consultants to do that.

[00:08:10] But I think it's important for people to be educated around spotting and identifying that for themselves too.

[00:08:16] Yeah, yeah.

[00:08:16] Do you want to just quickly give us an outline on what that means?

[00:08:20] Yeah, of course.

[00:08:21] What it means if an easement's benefited to that site or burdened to that site?

[00:08:25] Yeah, I've actually got a good example.

[00:08:27] I did a job a few years back.

[00:08:29] It was in Glen Alpine under Campbelltown City Council.

[00:08:31] Yeah.

[00:08:32] There was a massive easement at the back, five metres wide, and it was a private easement.

[00:08:36] It didn't belong to any of the neighbouring properties except for the one further down because it was such a steep site.

[00:08:46] And my client, which is a mum and dad, they were building a family home.

[00:08:51] They sent it to me.

[00:08:53] They said, look, we're interested in buying this property, you know, to build a home.

[00:08:56] Like, yeah, it looks great.

[00:08:57] They're like, we've got an easement and force the rim.

[00:08:59] Like, perfect.

[00:08:59] Can you send me the title search?

[00:09:01] Had a look at it.

[00:09:03] So I went to the title search and I went to the, I think, I believe this, I think it's called the Section 88B instrument where it shows where you're benefited or burdened.

[00:09:14] Now, the easement travelled behind his property and a few others and unfortunately he wasn't allowed to tap into it.

[00:09:21] Yeah.

[00:09:21] Because the one property behind him was benefited, which gave him permission to tap in.

[00:09:26] But his property was burdened and he was not allowed.

[00:09:29] I'm like, look, lucky we picked this up because your site is so steep, you won't be able to get the water out to the front.

[00:09:34] Yes.

[00:09:34] We've got to tap into the rear.

[00:09:36] Yep.

[00:09:36] We need to find a way that we can get permission from these owners to tap into this easement.

[00:09:44] So the process was to find out who earned the easement, go to land titles, see if they could give us any information, which they did.

[00:09:51] And we wrote a letter to the private, the owners of the easement.

[00:09:56] And they asked for all of our site calculations of how many litres per second of the dwelling going into this easement.

[00:10:02] And they were quite comfortable.

[00:10:04] It only was such a low, because it was just a double, a single dwelling.

[00:10:07] Yeah.

[00:10:08] Nothing too intense.

[00:10:10] And yeah, they were quite happy with that.

[00:10:12] And they gave us the restriction lifted.

[00:10:15] We updated to land titles.

[00:10:17] And yeah, we got the process going.

[00:10:19] Yep.

[00:10:19] So now it's benefited.

[00:10:20] And now it's benefited on their title now.

[00:10:22] So if you were to order another title search on the next set, it would be benefited to that block.

[00:10:27] Great.

[00:10:27] That's a great outcome.

[00:10:29] Yeah.

[00:10:29] Yeah.

[00:10:30] And look, I think obviously in a lot of areas around New South Wales, obviously we're dealing with a lot of sites that slope various directions.

[00:10:42] Yeah.

[00:10:43] All across the, obviously there's some areas, especially in the rural, Western, Central West, Riverine.

[00:10:49] A lot of those areas, sites are quite flat, even parts of Sydney and coastal areas.

[00:10:55] But we're seeing a lot more sites that are sloping sites.

[00:10:58] And it's funny, you'll see on one side of the street, everything slopes on one side of the road.

[00:11:04] You've got everything that slopes to the curb.

[00:11:06] Yeah.

[00:11:06] And then obviously on the other side of the road, everything slopes backwards.

[00:11:11] And it's interesting when you see a lot of people buying properties without actually doing their research.

[00:11:20] Or they're saying, oh, look, I bought this duplex block really cheap.

[00:11:24] It was so, so cheap.

[00:11:27] And then you realise, well, you can't actually drain it.

[00:11:29] You need an easement.

[00:11:30] Exactly.

[00:11:31] But look, I think one thing I think would really help listeners and developers, investors doing projects would be to understand the different types of stormwater drainage systems that are available for smaller projects, duplexes, townhouses, that sort of thing.

[00:11:48] And obviously we're not going to go so high level talking council to council because every council is different.

[00:11:54] As we know, some councils only allow easement, nothing else.

[00:12:00] Exactly.

[00:12:00] For backward sloping blocks.

[00:12:01] Other ones you can be creative and come up with ways that comply with the development control plan.

[00:12:06] But can we just run through the different types of easements generally?

[00:12:10] Sorry, the different types of stormwater systems that are around?

[00:12:15] And I think just so people can understand what that actually is because I think, for example, absorption.

[00:12:23] Yes, a builder might understand, but the average mum or dad may not understand what that is, what's the purpose of it,

[00:12:29] how it works?

[00:12:30] Obviously, for time's sake, you don't have to go too high level.

[00:12:34] But can we talk through some different stormwater systems from the basic, you know, the most basic down to a few that are available?

[00:12:42] Yeah.

[00:13:10] Yeah.

[00:13:12] So that's why we're more like this underground storage area.

[00:13:18] So the water just gets collected in that area and it just slowly absorbs through the soil.

[00:13:24] And the important thing to know is that the absorption is more applicable for more like a sandy area soil type.

[00:13:32] So which is along the coast mostly.

[00:13:35] For area inside the land, it's not that beneficial anymore.

[00:13:39] So that's why we sort of change our direction into providing a level spreader system instead.

[00:13:45] So for level spreader, it's more like just think of it as a slotted pipe, grab it in gravel and then just going to be underground.

[00:13:55] So the water gets collected into that trench and then it slowly builds up and then upwelling from the gravel trench.

[00:14:02] So it becomes like a sheet flow, very low velocity.

[00:14:06] So it doesn't create like scour throughout the land.

[00:14:10] Yeah.

[00:14:10] That's the most common thing.

[00:14:12] Yeah.

[00:14:12] For some other council, some of them are also allowed like pump out system, but it's up to council discrepancy.

[00:14:20] But yeah, some council do accept that, which is a good thing.

[00:14:25] Yeah.

[00:14:25] Yeah.

[00:14:26] Yeah.

[00:14:26] That's really good.

[00:14:28] And look, just because the site slopes backwards, do you find sometimes there are methods in how to be creative to get the water to the curb?

[00:14:36] For example, obviously not every council year can do that, but have you got some ideas, just some tips or ways that you've been able to, in some councils, be able to get water to the curb, even if it is slightly backwards sloping?

[00:14:52] You don't have to be council specific.

[00:14:56] Yeah, yeah.

[00:14:56] But just in general, because I think a lot of people don't realise that there are sometimes there are creative ways that are fully compliant as well to drain stormwater.

[00:15:06] Yeah, we've had some scenarios where we can achieve that possibility where we can charge a line to the boundary.

[00:15:15] So get, you know, the pressure from the gutter, head pressure from the gutter to take the water to push it out to the street on boundary.

[00:15:22] And then we can kind of, if we've got a natural fall from boundary out to the curb and gutter, that's a possibility of also achieving that, which is a great trick.

[00:15:29] Also, we also look into in terms of maybe lifting up a driveway because driveway is pretty critical.

[00:15:37] Some people don't realise, you know, having a driveway going backwards is no good because we've got to actually collect the surface runoff for a driveway.

[00:15:44] Yeah.

[00:15:44] And that could lead to an absorption.

[00:15:46] So always try to see if we can maybe get, you know, an architect kind of lift the driveway up to get a 1% fall out to the street.

[00:15:52] Because that essentially eliminates an absorption trench at the reed, which as an absorption trench does kind of have some restrictions, some setbacks from side and reed boundaries.

[00:16:00] Yeah.

[00:16:01] That's another little idea.

[00:16:03] And also if we can maybe even lift the site because we believe under some planning controls that we can lift the site a few hundred mil to achieve natural fall out to the street.

[00:16:12] So integrating retaining walls.

[00:16:14] Yep.

[00:16:16] Also, Min did a job just recently now in Silverwater.

[00:16:19] It was a pretty tricky job but we kind of got over the line and the client was honestly over the moon, I couldn't say, because he was trying to get an easement behind him and the client behind him was being very difficult.

[00:16:34] There was actually an easement running through the property but he misses his boundary by one metre.

[00:16:40] And so the neighbour behind him was actually asking him for a ridiculous amount of money for about two square metres of his land.

[00:16:48] And he asked us, he's like, look, we need to do something here.

[00:16:51] And Min managed to kind of pull something together and I'll get him to kind of describe what systems he's pulled.

[00:16:57] It's quite a funny one but we actually got that over the line.

[00:17:01] And the client was, yeah, honestly couldn't be more satisfied.

[00:17:05] Do you want to tell Nathan about Silverwater?

[00:17:07] Yeah.

[00:17:08] So for that Silverwater site, so it's slopping from the front to the back for about 400 mills which is not too bad.

[00:17:17] So that was the three terraces job.

[00:17:20] Yeah.

[00:17:20] It's Parramatta Council.

[00:17:22] Yeah.

[00:17:22] Once a force to the rear, it's automatic easement.

[00:17:25] There's no questions about it.

[00:17:26] Yep.

[00:17:26] So for that particular site, so I've managed to split the system so that we have three terraces but we end up with six different OSD.

[00:17:37] Yeah.

[00:17:38] So that we can have a combination between the underground tank and also the above ground basin.

[00:17:44] So we end up with filling up the site for I think less than 600 mills which is like compliance under CDC.

[00:17:50] Yes.

[00:17:51] Yeah.

[00:17:51] Yeah.

[00:17:51] That's really good.

[00:17:52] Yeah.

[00:17:53] We took a lot of thinking but we actually got it over the line.

[00:17:56] Yeah.

[00:17:56] Yeah.

[00:17:57] It was hard there because Rattadju said OSD to drain to another OSD to get it out.

[00:18:01] Oh, yeah.

[00:18:02] It was just –

[00:18:03] Yeah.

[00:18:03] Yeah.

[00:18:03] And I guess it's – obviously that can be the tricky thing with negotiating easements, isn't it?

[00:18:10] Yeah.

[00:18:10] The moment neighbours get greedy.

[00:18:12] Yeah.

[00:18:13] And that's a big thing.

[00:18:14] That's one of the trickiest things I've found is people just see dollar signs often.

[00:18:19] The moment that you need to drain through a property behind or a neighbouring property, they can – that can be the tricky part is they see dollar signs.

[00:18:30] So, yeah.

[00:18:32] So although I'm sure it was an expensive task to do that system that you did, it probably would have been cheaper than doing –

[00:18:40] Oh, yeah.

[00:18:41] It was definitely much more cost effective than what the client behind was asking for to be honest.

[00:18:45] Yeah.

[00:18:45] Yeah.

[00:18:46] And then you take away the time factor too because easements can take years sometimes to negotiate.

[00:18:53] Exactly.

[00:18:54] And also the legal fees and all the title updates and all that comes into place as well, you know, and registering it to the title and, yeah, there was quite a bit involved.

[00:19:03] Yeah.

[00:19:03] And I'm guessing you guys have come across sites where, unfortunately, people have bought a site without engaging a good engineer to assess sites.

[00:19:14] Have you looked at sites where you've just – unfortunately, there's nothing they can do other than an easement?

[00:19:20] And so it's meant, unfortunately, they've got a site that can't be developed.

[00:19:23] Yeah.

[00:19:24] We've had that a couple of times, especially in Paramount Council in Cumberland.

[00:19:28] Yeah.

[00:19:28] People come from the Ride Council area where you're allowed to do an absorption system at the RE.

[00:19:33] Yes.

[00:19:34] For a site-specific – just a restricted 40% impervious area for the site.

[00:19:40] Yeah.

[00:19:40] And people used to come and say, oh, but I did it at Ride City Council.

[00:19:43] What can I do?

[00:19:44] And I tell them, like, unfortunately, the two policies are very different.

[00:19:48] With Paramount Council, they want an easement when it comes to a dual occupancy.

[00:19:51] Yeah.

[00:19:52] They just tell you, look, this is what we need.

[00:19:55] We don't care how you get it.

[00:19:57] You just need to go and get it.

[00:19:58] Yeah.

[00:19:58] Whether if it's through, you know, the court system or negotiating back and forth for a very long time.

[00:20:03] And, yeah, unfortunately, sometimes that happens.

[00:20:06] Yeah.

[00:20:07] And sorry, as well, Nathan, thing is as well, people do have an understanding that an easement is needed.

[00:20:15] But sometimes they don't think about what's behind them.

[00:20:17] Yeah.

[00:20:17] So we've had structures, a pool up against a boundary where you can't physically get an easement in there.

[00:20:22] Yeah.

[00:20:23] Or the building, it goes up to the full boundary.

[00:20:25] There's no site setback.

[00:20:26] Yeah.

[00:20:26] So we'd have to go to multiple lots.

[00:20:28] And some people don't think about that.

[00:20:29] Yeah.

[00:20:29] They just think about, oh, yeah, I'll just go straight through here.

[00:20:31] No problem.

[00:20:32] I'll see if I can kind of negotiate or deal with them.

[00:20:34] Yeah.

[00:20:34] But sometimes that's not the picture.

[00:20:35] Yeah.

[00:20:36] And that could cause a lot of issues as well.

[00:20:38] Yeah, that's true, isn't it?

[00:20:39] Yeah.

[00:20:39] I saw one where there was, yeah, there was a carport.

[00:20:44] They got the neighbour to agree, which is all well and good.

[00:20:47] But then all of a sudden they realised, wow, we've got to remove a carport.

[00:20:53] We've got to deal with the driveway or the concrete, all that side of it.

[00:20:57] Yeah.

[00:20:58] So good luck trying to get a neighbour then to tell them that you've got to take 900

[00:21:02] a year or a metre off their carport.

[00:21:05] Yeah, you're right.

[00:21:06] Like all of a sudden you're now paying two neighbours.

[00:21:10] Yeah, multiple sometimes.

[00:21:11] Yeah.

[00:21:12] It depends on the fall of the natural ground as well comes into place.

[00:21:15] Yeah.

[00:21:16] Yeah.

[00:21:16] I mean, some people don't take into account the cost of reinstating people's backyards.

[00:21:19] Yeah.

[00:21:19] Like, you know, you've got to rip it up and then reinstate it back to how it was in order

[00:21:24] to get an easement over the line.

[00:21:25] Yeah.

[00:21:26] Yeah.

[00:21:26] A lot of factors, to be honest.

[00:21:28] And I guess a lot of these headaches can get alleviated, can't they, really, by talking

[00:21:32] to the right people before you buy that site?

[00:21:34] Yeah, definitely.

[00:21:37] Yeah, a piece of advice I would say, you know, if you don't know an engineering consultant,

[00:21:42] I would, you know, speak to an architect.

[00:21:43] If not, if you're, you know, completely out of the picture.

[00:21:46] Yeah.

[00:21:46] You know, sometimes accounts will give you some guidance.

[00:21:49] You know, speaking to a stormwater engineer in council, you know, they're quite helpful

[00:21:53] and you just let them know what you want to do and what you're looking for.

[00:21:56] And sometimes they can give you the right advice.

[00:21:58] Yep.

[00:21:58] That's a good little, you know, step one and then moving on to the next after that.

[00:22:02] Yeah.

[00:22:03] And I think just while we talk about council, I think every council's obviously got their

[00:22:09] own development control plan around stormwater drainage generally, don't they?

[00:22:15] Correct.

[00:22:15] Yeah.

[00:22:15] Now, obviously, people like yourself and myself, we're reading these DCPs, development

[00:22:21] control plans, day in, day out.

[00:22:23] So it comes natural to us.

[00:22:25] Yeah.

[00:22:26] But I always say to people, if you are doing developments and investments, especially if

[00:22:31] you are suburb specific or council specific, you need to get to know that council.

[00:22:38] But there are obviously some people that do multiple councils.

[00:22:40] And that's where I think it is important to, yes, build a team, have designers, architects,

[00:22:49] engineers, stormwater engineers.

[00:22:50] But I still think it's important for people to understand, do some of their own research

[00:22:55] too so they know what type of systems are available.

[00:22:59] Like, where would you encourage someone to go and look if they want to look at what stormwater

[00:23:03] systems are available in council?

[00:23:06] Do most councils have a DCP element for stormwater?

[00:23:11] Have you found in your research?

[00:23:14] Yeah.

[00:23:14] Yeah, we have.

[00:23:15] You know, every council's got their own stormwater policy.

[00:23:17] You know, sometimes it's kind of itemized.

[00:23:21] You know, I mean, deals on a daily basis.

[00:23:23] You know, if you want to find a single dwelling, it'll give you the list of options, how you

[00:23:27] need to comply with a single dwelling.

[00:23:29] If you want to do a multi-residential development, you've got to go to the multi-residential column

[00:23:35] and it'll kind of break down all the specifics that you need.

[00:23:39] Yeah.

[00:23:40] Look, sometimes, you know, what's a good little trick I give a lot of people is, you know,

[00:23:46] you're on your street, if you're on a busy street, you know, go for a walk.

[00:23:50] You know, some people have kind of developed what you want, either if it's a dual occupancy

[00:23:53] or it's a house on a basement or a single dwelling.

[00:23:56] Or if they've got that on the street, why don't you go and just have a walk and see what

[00:23:59] kind of system they have?

[00:24:00] Yeah.

[00:24:00] Sometimes that's a really good trick because generally the contours are generally the same,

[00:24:04] so the natural ground, hopefully it doesn't change too much.

[00:24:06] Yeah.

[00:24:06] If you're in a nice, low, flat profile.

[00:24:09] Yeah.

[00:24:09] I always kind of tell everyone, you know, just go walk down your street.

[00:24:12] You understand how some people are draining either to the rear, to the front,

[00:24:15] because you can see a curb outlet on the curb.

[00:24:17] Yes.

[00:24:18] Sometimes they don't see that, so then some, so it's got to be going somewhere.

[00:24:21] Yeah.

[00:24:21] And that kind of helps people understand, oh, that's a great idea, you know.

[00:24:24] I encourage people, even just go for a walk down the street.

[00:24:26] Yeah.

[00:24:26] And you'll see the type of development that's happening there will give you a good indication.

[00:24:30] Yeah.

[00:24:31] You know, it's a good little thing.

[00:24:32] That's a good little hack.

[00:24:34] It's funny too because that's a little hack.

[00:24:36] I, you get the odd person.

[00:24:39] I've had different people over the years where they'll bring you 20 or 30 sites and none of them work.

[00:24:45] So I remember in some councils, I just said to them, like, it's a, it's the most simplest of hack.

[00:24:51] But if they, if they don't have it, obviously there's a lot of mapping software now that can bring up the contours.

[00:24:56] Like I think six maps can do it.

[00:24:58] You've got near maps.

[00:24:59] You've got all these different programs that can give you an idea of the contours.

[00:25:03] Yeah.

[00:25:03] But I always say to people when they're looking at real estate software, just like one of the simplest hacks to see if it is first and foremost forward sloping to the street.

[00:25:13] Yeah.

[00:25:14] Have a look on Google Street.

[00:25:15] Look for that little 90 or 100 mil outlet.

[00:25:20] Makes a big difference.

[00:25:21] It's simple and the beauty is then they can narrow down.

[00:25:24] Like obviously just because you can't see that doesn't mean you can't drain it.

[00:25:29] But from a very simple perspective to make life a bit easier, if you are wanting, you know, a stress-free site and you know that you have to drain to the curb, you've got no other options.

[00:25:40] Yeah.

[00:25:40] That's the simplest little hack is go on Google Street View and just look for that, look for that little outlet.

[00:25:46] Comes in so handy.

[00:25:47] Yeah.

[00:25:47] Yeah.

[00:25:48] And it just means then you're not having to take 20 sites that just don't work to your consultant.

[00:25:54] Exactly.

[00:25:55] So look, although it is, you never just want to rely on your own knowledge, especially if you're not a consultant.

[00:26:01] But I still think it's important for investors, developers, people doing projects to educate themselves on the systems that are available so that you don't make wrong decisions.

[00:26:11] But also so that you're not bringing, you know, ordinary sites to your consultants because everyone's got a limit to – that's one thing I've tried to educate people on is still do your own research.

[00:26:24] You don't want to bring 20 bad sites.

[00:26:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:26:27] Because you wear your consultants out and, well, if they're constantly doing due diligence on bad sites, they're not able to do amazing work on your good sites.

[00:26:38] So it's a fine line.

[00:26:39] Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[00:26:40] I agree.

[00:26:40] Yeah.

[00:26:41] Look, what about in terms of – we spoke a little bit about absorption there before.

[00:26:49] Are there times with absorption where someone will need to spend a little bit of money to get that information?

[00:26:56] Like I know you spoke, Min, about obviously that absorption works really well on a sandy site.

[00:27:03] Correct.

[00:27:03] Yeah.

[00:27:03] I'm guessing there's times where it's important to get some sort of geotech carried out to determine if that absorption will work.

[00:27:13] Like just because a council says you can do absorption, are there still – is there still due diligence and maybe where the client or the – has to go and spend some money to really determine what you're dealing with in terms of the soil, the capacity for that absorption?

[00:27:31] Yeah.

[00:27:33] Yeah.

[00:27:34] I'll give you an example in Bayside Council.

[00:27:38] So in Bayside Council, they are along the coast.

[00:27:44] So the majority of the land is a soil area.

[00:27:48] So if you do like a single dwelling or dual occupancy,

[00:27:51] basically you can adopt an infiltration rate from council guidelines.

[00:27:56] But bear in mind that that infiltration rate is going to be very conservative

[00:28:01] compared to the actual values of the soil.

[00:28:05] So it's better to get the geotech to do the actual investigation,

[00:28:09] do the borehole, get the actual testing results

[00:28:12] so we can optimize the absorption system

[00:28:15] so that we can reduce the amount of changes,

[00:28:18] reducing the cost and labors and all that.

[00:28:21] And then at the same time in Bayside,

[00:28:25] there are areas where council just doesn't allow any absorption

[00:28:28] because they know for a fact that that's where it's transitioned

[00:28:32] from a sandy into a clay.

[00:28:35] So it doesn't work either way.

[00:28:37] So we wouldn't recommend to do like testing even

[00:28:40] because it's not going to work one way or another.

[00:28:42] Yeah.

[00:28:43] Yep.

[00:28:44] Now what about OSDs?

[00:28:46] Like we're talking, let's sort of talk townhouse today.

[00:28:49] Sort of, you know, a lot of people are dabbling in maybe three,

[00:28:53] fours, fives, six, maybe even more up from there.

[00:28:56] Yeah, but have you found that a lot of people,

[00:29:01] when it comes to their feasibility, they haven't factored in OSD systems

[00:29:04] or they've, I'm sure you guys have had to also fix projects

[00:29:09] where maybe an OSD hasn't been designed well

[00:29:13] or it's been overdone too.

[00:29:16] I know you did that for one of our projects.

[00:29:19] You fixed it up and you realised that it would have cost a lot of money

[00:29:22] and we're dealing with rock and you guys tidied it up

[00:29:25] and saved us a lot of money.

[00:29:27] Have you come across that a bit?

[00:29:29] Like where?

[00:29:30] Yeah, I would say quite a bit.

[00:29:33] There's a lot of variables we need to take into account.

[00:29:36] You know, especially, you know, mentioning rock is really important

[00:29:39] because we know how expensive that is to bring out the excavator

[00:29:42] with the hammer and the saw.

[00:29:43] Yes.

[00:29:43] So we kind of go for a more shallow approach for an OSD

[00:29:47] to minimise the excavation.

[00:29:51] And some people don't realise that OSDs are pretty pricey

[00:29:56] when it comes to the ones that are below ground

[00:29:57] because they're actually concrete in situ,

[00:29:59] so concrete bays, concrete walls, concrete lid.

[00:30:02] Yeah.

[00:30:03] You know, because some of these can blow out, you know, 15,

[00:30:06] anywhere between 15 and 20,000 per OSD.

[00:30:09] Sometimes I've heard from the contractors

[00:30:11] and if you're doing three, four of them because, you know,

[00:30:14] if you're doing a Torrance total and not a Strata, you know, development,

[00:30:17] you've got to do for every individual one.

[00:30:18] And if you've got four of them, four times, you know, 15 to 20,000,

[00:30:22] I was kidding, between 60 and 80 grand.

[00:30:24] Yeah.

[00:30:24] And people don't, you know, take into account, you know,

[00:30:29] the feasibility for that and also the legal fees

[00:30:32] because an OSD is actually restricted to the title now

[00:30:36] when it's subdivided and they need to think about registering it,

[00:30:39] you know, registering with council land titles and updating everything.

[00:30:44] All those fees come across as well.

[00:30:45] Yeah.

[00:30:47] Yeah, you know, we always try to be the most cost effective, you know.

[00:30:52] We always look after the client, you know.

[00:30:54] It's the best possible way, you know,

[00:30:57] but sometimes councils have strict guidelines.

[00:30:59] Yeah.

[00:31:00] But there is different types of OSDs,

[00:31:01] whether being in a below ground, which is one,

[00:31:04] an above ground system where, you know,

[00:31:06] we're building retaining walls and kind of grading the natural ground

[00:31:09] to the OSD and that kind of goes out,

[00:31:11] which is more cost effective because you're essentially just building walls

[00:31:14] around the OSD.

[00:31:15] Yeah.

[00:31:16] And then another, probably the best possible,

[00:31:18] most cost effective way would be a rainwater tank slash OSD system.

[00:31:23] Yeah.

[00:31:24] So essentially you're going to need a rainwater tank anyway for BASICs to comply.

[00:31:27] Yes.

[00:31:28] So we just kind of double the scale of the tank generally.

[00:31:30] So sometimes if you need a 3,000 litre tank,

[00:31:33] if you do a combined tank, you need say 1,500 for OSD and 3,000 for BASICs.

[00:31:38] Yeah.

[00:31:38] That's a 4,500 litre tank.

[00:31:40] So we just kind of split the tank into two.

[00:31:42] So we have an outlet at midpoint of the tank instead of at the top where it overflows out.

[00:31:47] That would possibly be the most cost effective way.

[00:31:49] And then I would say maybe an above ground and then a below ground will be the most cost

[00:31:56] to be honest.

[00:31:57] Yeah, yeah.

[00:31:57] Yeah.

[00:31:58] And I think you just nailed something there in regards to that because I've seen that

[00:32:02] often where people just haven't factored in that cost early in their feasibility.

[00:32:08] Yeah, yeah.

[00:32:11] And I guess engaging with an engineer early in the piece.

[00:32:15] Yeah.

[00:32:15] And obviously you need to know the strategy, what sort of footprint are they dealing with,

[00:32:22] how many townhouses, what sort of capacity.

[00:32:25] There's obviously a lot of factors for you involved in that,

[00:32:28] but I think it doesn't hurt to liaise with your team early in the piece.

[00:32:34] If you are going to, like you said, if you're going to do Torren's title

[00:32:36] and you do need to go OSD under the surface.

[00:32:40] Yeah.

[00:32:41] There are some costs there that can really blow things out.

[00:32:47] And I guess because most people that are doing developments and projects,

[00:32:52] they're obviously doing it to generate some form of wealth.

[00:32:56] Is that an area where you guys are always looking for,

[00:33:00] obviously you've got to do something compliant,

[00:33:02] but is that something you guys are always very aware of,

[00:33:06] is understanding the type of project someone is doing?

[00:33:08] So you're looking at solutions that can obviously, you know,

[00:33:13] deal with the water,

[00:33:15] but also ensure that they're not overspending on areas where they don't need to?

[00:33:22] Yeah, definitely.

[00:33:24] Especially in a couple of councils where if the building footprint doesn't reach a certain percentage,

[00:33:30] so hard surface area, including driveways and the size of building,

[00:33:34] you can actually do not need an OSD.

[00:33:36] Yes.

[00:33:36] So sometimes building footprints are just like five square meters bigger than if we,

[00:33:42] you know,

[00:33:42] kind of communicate that to the client and just say,

[00:33:44] look,

[00:33:44] are you happy to make the building footprint five square meters smaller?

[00:33:47] We get to avoid OSDs on both sides.

[00:33:49] Yeah.

[00:33:49] So you want to work out your feasibility of,

[00:33:52] you know,

[00:33:52] reducing the footprint and we can eliminate two OSDs,

[00:33:54] you know,

[00:33:55] anywhere between 15,

[00:33:56] sorry,

[00:33:56] anywhere between 30 and 40,000,

[00:33:58] you know,

[00:33:58] two of them.

[00:33:59] Yeah.

[00:33:59] And sometimes they're just,

[00:34:00] you know what,

[00:34:01] sometimes it's worth it just to make it that little bit smaller because five square meters might not make a difference.

[00:34:06] Because if it's well planned,

[00:34:07] then you're still achieving all the requirements for that specific area.

[00:34:10] Yeah.

[00:34:11] Sometimes you still get a,

[00:34:11] you know,

[00:34:12] greater outcome out of it.

[00:34:13] Yeah.

[00:34:14] No,

[00:34:14] that's good.

[00:34:14] And I think the beauty is that if someone has factored in,

[00:34:18] let's say 20K per townhouse for an OSD in their initial feasibility,

[00:34:24] obviously if you can avoid that,

[00:34:26] well,

[00:34:26] there's straight away,

[00:34:27] there's upside,

[00:34:28] there's some additional profit.

[00:34:30] Of course.

[00:34:30] On the development.

[00:34:31] Yeah.

[00:34:31] But if they do have to do it and if they are going to get the best outcome of going that pathway,

[00:34:37] well,

[00:34:37] they've factored it in.

[00:34:38] So there's no stress.

[00:34:39] Yeah.

[00:34:40] Yeah,

[00:34:40] definitely.

[00:34:40] So,

[00:34:41] so I guess early in that piece,

[00:34:42] it probably is good to factor in that you may need that.

[00:34:45] Yeah.

[00:34:45] The best is like,

[00:34:46] you know,

[00:34:47] when you,

[00:34:47] you factor OSDs in and they're factoring below grounds,

[00:34:50] then we managed to get it in a combined rainwater tank OSD,

[00:34:53] you know,

[00:34:53] you're paying a little bit extra,

[00:34:54] but you've cut the cost by like,

[00:34:56] you know,

[00:34:57] one third,

[00:34:57] God,

[00:34:57] it's completely gone.

[00:34:58] Yeah.

[00:34:59] And they're just,

[00:35:00] you know,

[00:35:00] can't be more happier to be honest.

[00:35:01] Yeah.

[00:35:02] Obviously a stormwater design for a DA versus a CC versus a CDC,

[00:35:09] is it,

[00:35:09] the documentation level's different.

[00:35:11] Obviously you hear in a DA,

[00:35:13] someone will say,

[00:35:14] or council will tell you,

[00:35:16] you need a stormwater concept.

[00:35:18] Can you just run us through the difference between,

[00:35:22] and I've seen this,

[00:35:23] sometimes you'll get a client or a developer have a bit of a,

[00:35:27] get a bit upset because they're like,

[00:35:29] I've got,

[00:35:29] I've already got my stormwater for DA.

[00:35:32] Then they've got to get additional things done for CDC.

[00:35:34] And I think it's important to talk about this one because I think it helps

[00:35:37] educate people doing projects to understand that just because you've got a

[00:35:42] concept for DA doesn't mean it's ready for construction.

[00:35:45] So can you guys just run us through the difference between like a,

[00:35:50] when you got,

[00:35:50] when you do a stormwater design for a DA,

[00:35:53] let's just say,

[00:35:54] whether it be a duplex or some townhouses versus a CC,

[00:35:57] just so people understand that way.

[00:35:59] They're not going thinking that they're getting tricked or they're getting

[00:36:02] hoodwinked and maybe,

[00:36:04] and it'll probably help town planners,

[00:36:07] architects,

[00:36:07] designers as well,

[00:36:09] educate clients as well on the fact that,

[00:36:11] Hey,

[00:36:13] there's two parts to this.

[00:36:14] Do you want to just run us through that?

[00:36:16] Well,

[00:36:16] the difference between a stormwater design for DA versus a CC.

[00:36:21] Yep.

[00:36:22] So,

[00:36:22] so for stormwater DA,

[00:36:23] we generally focus on simplifying the design in terms of the,

[00:36:29] the drainage design for the building itself.

[00:36:31] So because for DA,

[00:36:33] we generally want to show council the,

[00:36:36] the minimum requirements that what we have to do.

[00:36:38] So from a council perspective,

[00:36:40] they only worry about is there any external catchment going through the

[00:36:44] site and how we capture it and divert around the site.

[00:36:46] Is the onsite detention required?

[00:36:49] And how are we going to dispose the stormwater runoff?

[00:36:52] So those are the main items that council would like to,

[00:36:57] to,

[00:36:57] to look at.

[00:36:58] So,

[00:36:58] so those are the important items that we,

[00:37:01] we tick off during the DA.

[00:37:03] So we don't want to show too much information for the building itself,

[00:37:06] because as you can see that the building can be changed and there are

[00:37:10] variety of different solutions we can give in terms of the internal

[00:37:15] drainage of the building.

[00:37:16] So we don't want to,

[00:37:18] you know,

[00:37:18] like provide those information.

[00:37:20] Then we have to change it later on.

[00:37:21] If the building does change something.

[00:37:23] So that's,

[00:37:24] that's for the DA.

[00:37:25] But for CDC,

[00:37:26] we do like a,

[00:37:27] like a full compliance and detailed design for both building and the site

[00:37:31] stormwater,

[00:37:32] stormwater management.

[00:37:34] Yeah.

[00:37:34] So that's,

[00:37:34] that's the difference between those two.

[00:37:36] Yeah.

[00:37:36] And also I want to add is that doing the DA,

[00:37:40] so council does approve the concept,

[00:37:43] um,

[00:37:44] stormwater plans.

[00:37:45] Um,

[00:37:46] but what a lot of people don't realize that,

[00:37:48] um,

[00:37:49] they approve the plans,

[00:37:50] but they also sometimes put a lot of conditions in their consent,

[00:37:54] um,

[00:37:55] which people don't really aware of that.

[00:37:57] Um,

[00:37:58] so they,

[00:37:59] they,

[00:37:59] they,

[00:37:59] they just,

[00:37:59] what,

[00:38:00] what they mean is that,

[00:38:01] um,

[00:38:01] they generally happy with the concept design,

[00:38:03] but they want item ABCD needs to be addressed in the CC.

[00:38:07] Yes.

[00:38:08] Yeah.

[00:38:08] So that's something to think about.

[00:38:10] So,

[00:38:10] um,

[00:38:10] from DA,

[00:38:11] we have to update our plans according to their conditions to satisfy the CC and go for construction.

[00:38:16] Yeah.

[00:38:17] Yeah.

[00:38:18] And you hit a really good point there because I think that's where a lot of people,

[00:38:21] they overlook their,

[00:38:23] their consent.

[00:38:25] Yeah.

[00:38:26] Sometimes that list keeps going on.

[00:38:28] It just doesn't stop.

[00:38:30] Yeah.

[00:38:30] Yeah.

[00:38:31] And have you had instances where you believe that some of,

[00:38:36] some of the conditions that council have imposed,

[00:38:39] uh,

[00:38:40] um,

[00:38:41] either not required or over the top where you've been able to go back to council and,

[00:38:48] yeah,

[00:38:48] we've had that.

[00:38:50] We can tell that's a copy paste sometimes condition.

[00:38:53] We're like,

[00:38:54] we've got nothing on this.

[00:38:55] Yeah.

[00:38:55] Yeah.

[00:38:56] It's pretty quite common,

[00:38:57] but sometimes private certos,

[00:38:59] private,

[00:38:59] sorry,

[00:38:59] private certifiers do understand,

[00:39:01] um,

[00:39:02] you know,

[00:39:02] cause we kind of,

[00:39:03] kind of communicate that with them.

[00:39:05] Look,

[00:39:05] we have,

[00:39:06] this doesn't,

[00:39:06] um,

[00:39:07] you know,

[00:39:08] kind of really relate to this development.

[00:39:10] They're like,

[00:39:10] yeah,

[00:39:10] we totally understand,

[00:39:11] you know,

[00:39:12] just give us an email confirming this and it's not a problem,

[00:39:14] you know,

[00:39:14] on their end.

[00:39:15] Um,

[00:39:16] yeah,

[00:39:16] that's quite common to be honest.

[00:39:18] Yeah.

[00:39:19] And I,

[00:39:20] I know even myself owning a design firm where I've had to go back to council and actually,

[00:39:26] um,

[00:39:27] hit them up on matters.

[00:39:29] Yeah.

[00:39:29] Of that consent.

[00:39:30] And that's why it's so important to read your consent.

[00:39:33] Yeah.

[00:39:33] Have a team around you that read that consent,

[00:39:35] look at that consent.

[00:39:36] Um,

[00:39:38] because it can really bring you unstuck.

[00:39:40] Um,

[00:39:41] or it can cause unnecessary costs and,

[00:39:44] um,

[00:39:46] sometimes even delays.

[00:39:47] Of course.

[00:39:48] Of course.

[00:39:48] Yeah.

[00:39:49] Someone thinks beauty,

[00:39:49] I've got the DA approved,

[00:39:51] but they don't read the consent.

[00:39:53] Yeah.

[00:39:53] Yeah.

[00:39:54] No,

[00:39:54] that's really good.

[00:39:55] And look from a,

[00:39:56] from a CC point of view then,

[00:39:58] so we've touched on DA,

[00:40:00] CDC.

[00:40:01] Um,

[00:40:02] so you've got the,

[00:40:03] you've got the concept stormwater design.

[00:40:06] Yeah.

[00:40:06] It's been DA approved.

[00:40:08] So then in terms of the CC then,

[00:40:10] so essentially you're,

[00:40:12] you've,

[00:40:13] uh,

[00:40:14] it's going back to you guys.

[00:40:15] So the,

[00:40:16] so the stormwater design is going back to you and you're obviously looking through that consent.

[00:40:21] Yeah.

[00:40:21] And you're making sure that the construction certificate documentation addresses that consent.

[00:40:28] Yeah,

[00:40:28] pretty much.

[00:40:29] Um,

[00:40:29] you know,

[00:40:30] when it comes down after the DA approval has been given,

[00:40:32] um,

[00:40:33] we know we like to communicate with the builder too and how he likes to do things.

[00:40:36] And,

[00:40:36] um,

[00:40:37] sometimes,

[00:40:37] you know,

[00:40:37] DA consent changes your design too.

[00:40:39] And we need to adopt to that design because it can change a lot.

[00:40:42] Like,

[00:40:42] you know,

[00:40:43] I'm sure you've been in the scenario where it's the day condition comes across.

[00:40:47] And then apparently on the day condition,

[00:40:48] you need to raise,

[00:40:49] um,

[00:40:50] open sub floor and hold on.

[00:40:52] I mean,

[00:40:52] we never were asked to get a flood advice letter.

[00:40:54] And sometimes,

[00:40:55] you know,

[00:40:55] some councils put a lot of conditions on there,

[00:40:57] you know,

[00:40:57] and sometimes it changes the design completely.

[00:40:59] Yeah.

[00:41:00] Um,

[00:41:00] and also,

[00:41:01] yeah,

[00:41:02] council just only want to look at the method of discharge,

[00:41:05] whether it's going to the front,

[00:41:06] how you're doing it to the back,

[00:41:07] where is it going?

[00:41:08] Or it's on site.

[00:41:09] That's pretty much what they want.

[00:41:11] Yeah.

[00:41:11] In terms of when it's CC,

[00:41:13] that's when the,

[00:41:14] you know,

[00:41:14] physical work happens.

[00:41:15] So we need to make sure all of our documentation is ready for construction.

[00:41:18] Yeah.

[00:41:18] Um,

[00:41:18] and we need to communicate that all with all of our consultants,

[00:41:22] to be honest.

[00:41:22] Yeah.

[00:41:23] Yeah.

[00:41:23] That's how it goes.

[00:41:24] Excellent.

[00:41:25] Very good.

[00:41:25] Well,

[00:41:25] look,

[00:41:26] I think we might wrap it up,

[00:41:28] but even if,

[00:41:29] um,

[00:41:30] maybe just one little piece of it,

[00:41:31] one last little piece of advice,

[00:41:33] you might want to give to a,

[00:41:34] like a residential investor,

[00:41:36] developer doing projects,

[00:41:37] anything from duplexes up.

[00:41:39] Is there any,

[00:41:40] anything,

[00:41:40] any little tips or any,

[00:41:41] any,

[00:41:42] any bit of wisdom you can leave us with?

[00:41:45] Um,

[00:41:45] honestly,

[00:41:46] the most important thing and,

[00:41:49] you know,

[00:41:49] most efficient,

[00:41:50] quickest thing is check your title search,

[00:41:52] your 10.7.

[00:41:53] I could say that's the most important things where it's not going to cost you

[00:41:56] money.

[00:41:57] You're looking to buy a contractor,

[00:41:59] sorry,

[00:41:59] a property that comes with a contract of sale and all of the,

[00:42:02] all of these items come in with that contract of sale.

[00:42:05] Honestly,

[00:42:05] look at that.

[00:42:06] And if you guys do not understand,

[00:42:08] um,

[00:42:08] you know,

[00:42:09] how to interpret it,

[00:42:10] uh,

[00:42:10] interpretate these items,

[00:42:12] you know,

[00:42:12] contact an engineer.

[00:42:13] Um,

[00:42:14] if not,

[00:42:14] maybe try and go to council or,

[00:42:16] you know,

[00:42:16] professional yourself,

[00:42:18] uh,

[00:42:18] Nathan that,

[00:42:19] you know,

[00:42:19] has engineers working,

[00:42:21] you know,

[00:42:21] alongside and that,

[00:42:21] you know,

[00:42:22] we can all always help about like that way.

[00:42:24] Great.

[00:42:25] Very good.

[00:42:26] Well,

[00:42:26] it's been so good to have you guys on.

[00:42:28] Thanks Nathan.

[00:42:29] I,

[00:42:30] where's the best place?

[00:42:30] I think,

[00:42:31] look,

[00:42:32] I think having a good stormwater engineer is so vital in doing developments and projects,

[00:42:38] whether from due diligence all the way through,

[00:42:41] through to doing projects,

[00:42:42] where's the best,

[00:42:43] what's the best way for people to get in touch?

[00:42:44] If they've got a lot of value out of this podcast,

[00:42:47] where can people find you guys at?

[00:42:49] Um,

[00:42:50] honestly,

[00:42:50] just type in a name of Vanguard consulting engineers.

[00:42:52] You'll find our website.

[00:42:53] We've got,

[00:42:54] um,

[00:42:54] landlines,

[00:42:55] um,

[00:42:55] you know,

[00:42:55] you're the director to directed to our stormwater department.

[00:42:58] Um,

[00:42:59] you know,

[00:42:59] flick us an email.

[00:43:00] We'll get back to you.

[00:43:01] Um,

[00:43:01] you know,

[00:43:01] just let us know what type of development you want,

[00:43:03] wanting to do.

[00:43:04] Give us the address.

[00:43:06] Um,

[00:43:06] and,

[00:43:07] or even if you are looking not specifically for a site,

[00:43:10] just tell us the suburb.

[00:43:11] Um,

[00:43:12] and then we can give you a guideline on,

[00:43:14] you know,

[00:43:14] single dwellings.

[00:43:15] You can do this.

[00:43:15] Your job and see you can do this.

[00:43:17] Yeah.

[00:43:18] multi-residential.

[00:43:18] You need to do this.

[00:43:20] Um,

[00:43:20] yeah,

[00:43:20] we're definitely happy to help anyone out.

[00:43:22] Yeah.

[00:43:22] Terrific.

[00:43:23] Well,

[00:43:23] it's been good to have you guys on.

[00:43:25] I'm sure we'll get you back,

[00:43:25] get you back to talk about another topic at some point.

[00:43:28] But,

[00:43:29] um,

[00:43:29] yeah,

[00:43:29] look,

[00:43:29] thanks for,

[00:43:30] thanks for jumping on this episode today.

[00:43:32] Um,

[00:43:32] I know I've learned a lot once again,

[00:43:34] and I,

[00:43:36] look,

[00:43:36] if you've got a lot of value out of today's session,

[00:43:38] make sure you like,

[00:43:39] and subscribe.

[00:43:40] Feel free to share this around,

[00:43:42] share it with family,

[00:43:43] friends,

[00:43:43] anyone,

[00:43:43] you know,

[00:43:44] that's interested or passionate about doing projects and developments,

[00:43:47] all the details for the guys at Vanguard,

[00:43:50] are going to be in the show notes.

[00:43:51] So be sure to reach out to them.

[00:43:53] If you've got any questions around your development or a site you're looking at,

[00:43:57] I'm sure that I'm sure they'll be able to help you.

[00:43:59] So thanks for listening in and we'll see you next week.