Risk Management and Development Lessons with Richard Williams of Brickport

[00:00:00] As investors and developers, we see the world differently. This podcast uncovers the untold truths of what it really takes to become a multi-million dollar residential developer. I'm Nathan Battishall, let's get to work.

[00:00:18] All right, welcome to The Residential Developer Podcast. My name's Nathan Battishall, I'm the host, and I'm really privileged today to have Richard Williams from Brickport on with us today. I met Richard a good number of years ago at Parramatta, and I'd heard a lot about Richard. It was amazing. I'd heard so much about this guy, the amount of developers and investors I knew that had mentioned him and spoken about him. So it's such a privilege to have you on, mate.

[00:00:46] You're very connected in the industry and very knowledgeable on all things and anything in development and investment. I love your hunger and knowledge, and anyone who's on LinkedIn will know that Richard brings a lot of good advice and value to the industry. So it's really great to have you on. Thanks for coming in.

[00:01:05] Thanks very much, Nathan. It's an honour to be here. And yeah, a lot of time over the last 10 or 15 years has been spent in the property space, getting to know people, what they're up to, the projects they're working on. Development's always been my flavour, but I've done a few little renos along the way, and I certainly speak to people that are doing renovations, boarding houses, rooming houses, co-living.

[00:01:27] Like there's just such a wide spectrum that we've all been exposed to over the years as we find our little niches along the way. So really looking forward to dive into those niches today.

[00:01:38] Definitely, definitely. And I feel like today's episode won't do justice for the amount of knowledge you do have.

[00:01:44] And I'm sure we can get you back on to talk about some other elements. But do you want to just backtrack? One thing I do love about you, and I am, a lot of the people I love to get onto this podcast are obviously consultants or people in the industry, helping investors, developers, builder developers, mums and dads.

[00:02:03] One thing I love about you, though, is that you've got skin in the game. You've done developments. You've done some that work well. You've got some that could have been better. And I think that's any investor and developer. And I love that because essentially you're taking people on a journey where you've had the courage to do it yourself.

[00:02:23] Do you want to just tell, just for the listeners and people who are investors and developers, just getting a bit of a background insight into your, what got you into development, investment, even a little bit back into your background of your first career or your career in the Air Force, I believe.

[00:02:39] And I guess what led you and how that led you into property, investment, development, how that all came about. That's a big change going from Air Force to then into property.

[00:02:54] Yeah. Thanks, Nathan. So I had 25 plus years with Air Force and I moved around a little bit with Air Force, but I spent a big chunk of time initially over in Adelaide.

[00:03:07] So I had nine years over there, bought my first property whilst I was in Adelaide.

[00:03:11] So, you know, I was getting the Saturday morning paper out and circling the open homes I was going to get to, the properties I wanted to get to, checking out my budgets, working out which suburbs were affordable, what types of properties in those suburbs were affordable and narrowing down the areas I wanted to live.

[00:03:28] Because that first home was an owner-occupier property, though I did do a nice reno on it in the end before I sold it for a nice tidy little profit.

[00:03:37] Admittedly, I did have a good chunk of capital gains from market exposure there as well.

[00:03:42] But that first property was in Adelaide and, you know, I kind of learnt most of that initial knowledge through just getting out there doing things.

[00:03:51] Like around 20, 25 years ago, there wasn't much in the property education space.

[00:03:57] There was Steve McKnight and a couple of others, but it was pretty light on.

[00:04:01] We weren't blessed with the education and in many ways the information overload that we find today on social media around property.

[00:04:11] But from that first property purchase, you know, one of the guys I worked with had done a duplex project and he'd gone in 50-50 with a mate of his.

[00:04:20] They'd done well.

[00:04:22] So after that, he and a few of us thought, well, let's do this, but, you know, we can't do it on our own.

[00:04:28] So we put a little syndicate together and there was six of us in our little joint venture syndicate.

[00:04:32] We all threw in, I think, about 30 grand cash.

[00:04:36] And this was just prior to the GFC, 2007, 2008.

[00:04:40] So we got our DA.

[00:04:42] We went to a project home builder.

[00:04:43] They got the DA for us.

[00:04:45] And then we got our build prices.

[00:04:47] But we were in a small suburb.

[00:04:49] We didn't have a good history of that product in the market.

[00:04:55] And then lending criteria changed the way lenders were assessing people.

[00:05:00] Six young guys in a syndicate under a company structure didn't quite go so well.

[00:05:05] We didn't have the best broker.

[00:05:07] A few people were getting nervous.

[00:05:08] They're like, well, if we put more money in and borrow more money, aren't we going to get our money out?

[00:05:12] Like, or are we just going to make our loss bigger?

[00:05:15] So in the end, we sold that site with the approvals.

[00:05:18] And we took a bit of a loss.

[00:05:22] Off the top of my head, it was about $10,000, give or take.

[00:05:25] So, you know, it wasn't too bad.

[00:05:27] I've since, you know, made more, lost more, spent more than that on education.

[00:05:31] And from there, then I went and did another joint venture with some friends.

[00:05:35] And, you know, the benefit of working with the right people is, you know, we literally did it on a handshake.

[00:05:40] So we didn't have any legal agreements or anything.

[00:05:44] We just had the dot points of how we were going to do things, how it was going to work.

[00:05:48] We kept it simple.

[00:05:49] We did a duplex, one each on completion.

[00:05:51] They were owner-occupiers for theirs, so they upped their specs.

[00:05:55] We had two build contracts, so they had their build contract.

[00:05:57] I had mine.

[00:06:00] Split them off at the end into separate names and away we went.

[00:06:04] And again, you know, you learn good little lessons on that one, on council contributions.

[00:06:08] We did our duplex structure wrong so that we paid stamp duty on the way in.

[00:06:13] Then we had to pay stamp duty because I had to buy half of theirs.

[00:06:16] They had to buy half of mine.

[00:06:17] Yep.

[00:06:18] So we paid stamp duty at the back end.

[00:06:20] Anyone in New South Wales, there's this fantastic little thing called a deed of petition.

[00:06:24] Yep.

[00:06:25] Gets you out of a lot of these problems.

[00:06:26] Yep.

[00:06:28] But again, I learned a good number of lessons on that.

[00:06:30] And then I was lucky enough to be away overseas with work for a year.

[00:06:35] And during that time, I engaged a buyer's agent to buy me a property.

[00:06:39] Property was in Perth.

[00:06:40] And I kept the existing house and built two in the backyard.

[00:06:45] That project went well.

[00:06:47] The Perth market did tank towards the end of that project.

[00:06:50] And I've held those properties since.

[00:06:53] And the capital growth I'm currently getting off them is fantastic.

[00:06:58] Though having said that, you know, when you annualize that out over the period I've had

[00:07:02] those properties, you know, it's good.

[00:07:04] But it's certainly not, you know, a Sydney property at 7% to 10% capital growth year on

[00:07:10] year for the last 10 years.

[00:07:12] But having said that, I'm in the market.

[00:07:15] I've had those properties in the market.

[00:07:18] And one of my big aims is, you know, to have as much and as many properties in the market

[00:07:23] getting that long-term capital growth.

[00:07:25] Yep.

[00:07:25] The markets, you know, sometimes some will do well, some won't.

[00:07:29] They'll average themselves out and we'll get good long-term results.

[00:07:32] I'd definitely rather be in the market with leverage than just sitting on the sidelines

[00:07:37] with cash or just owning a couple of assets cash outright.

[00:07:42] But I did that Perth project, you know, and then I started getting some education during

[00:07:45] that process.

[00:07:46] And I'm kind of like, hey, there's networking events.

[00:07:49] Where are these people that are doing stuff that I was?

[00:07:52] There was a few companies out there.

[00:07:54] You join their programs and then you're also qualified to do their networking.

[00:07:58] And I'm kind of like, well, that blows.

[00:08:00] Let me just start some stuff.

[00:08:02] So I got into meetup.com and organized some meetup events in Sydney and started using

[00:08:07] Facebook events to organize local events in Sydney, which were the sort of events

[00:08:11] I wanted to have people hanging out at to learn stuff when I was, that I wanted to learn

[00:08:18] when I was starting hanging out in property.

[00:08:21] So started running those events, kept running them, did a townhouse project in Newcastle.

[00:08:27] I say I did one.

[00:08:28] You know, I sold it with CC approvals, but not the build.

[00:08:33] I wore a loss on that.

[00:08:36] That's the main learnings from that was the value of time.

[00:08:40] Yes.

[00:08:40] I got stuck in that deal for a number of years.

[00:08:43] And, you know, the Newcastle and Sydney markets were just trucking along.

[00:08:48] Fantastic capital growth.

[00:08:49] And here was me stuck in a dud asset, not getting the advantage of that capital growth.

[00:08:55] Yeah.

[00:08:57] I basically lost money on the way out, but the benefit to that was it cleared my head,

[00:09:02] cleared all that bad energy and allowed me to move on to the next deal.

[00:09:06] Yeah.

[00:09:06] But the big lessons from that one was the value of time.

[00:09:08] Yes.

[00:09:09] And make sure you've got exits.

[00:09:11] Yeah.

[00:09:11] Not just one exit.

[00:09:12] What are the multiple exit strategies you can get out of?

[00:09:14] Yeah.

[00:09:15] So that's one thing I focus on now with all my purchases when I'm helping any clients out.

[00:09:20] But it's like, hey, what's your plan A, B, C, D?

[00:09:23] Yeah.

[00:09:24] Because we want to make sure that we're not in a bad place at any time.

[00:09:27] Yep.

[00:09:28] And if things don't happen the way we want them to and plan them to, what's our next best option?

[00:09:33] Yep.

[00:09:34] So that was one of the learnings.

[00:09:36] And then the other learnings were just around the risk and the dollar value associated with

[00:09:40] that risk.

[00:09:41] There was a few things went wrong.

[00:09:42] There was a four-car garage in the backyard, built up well above ground level.

[00:09:50] The lovely old gentleman that used to live there and own the property worked for council

[00:09:53] in the 80s and got this fill from somewhere, you know, $60,000 of asbestos remediation later,

[00:10:01] you know, that problem was fixed.

[00:10:03] There were some stormwater pipes that were close to the surface.

[00:10:06] Knew the pipes were there, just didn't realise the exact depth of them that needed to be

[00:10:10] replaced.

[00:10:11] You know, tens of thousands of dollars worth of work there.

[00:10:15] Hunter Water Major Works, I knew that was coming.

[00:10:17] Had a, you know, rough idea of the magnitude, but it ended up being $50,000.

[00:10:22] Yep.

[00:10:22] So, you know, there was just multiple costs that accumulated on that particular project.

[00:10:28] So lots of good lessons learned and got out of that project and all I could really get

[00:10:34] into was a joint venture, 50-50, and that's what I did.

[00:10:37] Yep.

[00:10:39] So bought a property in Newcastle under a joint venture.

[00:10:43] We picked up the house.

[00:10:44] It was one title, two lots.

[00:10:46] So 600 metre title, 300 square metres.

[00:10:49] So two 300 square metre lots.

[00:10:50] We picked up the house.

[00:10:52] As you do in Queensland, we've got a Queensland house moving company down.

[00:10:55] Picked up the house, moved it on one of the 300 square metre lots.

[00:10:58] Did a little boundary alignment.

[00:10:59] Gave ourselves a vacant block of land and then built a property.

[00:11:02] Yep.

[00:11:03] And that was the first specialist disability accommodation house that I built.

[00:11:08] Yep.

[00:11:09] And that one's doing really well.

[00:11:11] We've got two tenants in there really happily living in that area and that's generating a

[00:11:15] nice yield on completion.

[00:11:17] So the yield would be probably about 12% on costs.

[00:11:21] Yep.

[00:11:22] And there's room for further upside.

[00:11:24] We're able to get a third resident into there at some stage.

[00:11:28] Just looking at sort of different funding options for that at the moment.

[00:11:32] So I did that.

[00:11:35] Another couple of deals.

[00:11:36] Mostly focused on the dual occupancy type space.

[00:11:38] So buy a house.

[00:11:40] Buy a backyard.

[00:11:41] In that backyard.

[00:11:42] Have enough space to put another house.

[00:11:44] Yeah.

[00:11:45] Corner block.

[00:11:46] Get a DA.

[00:11:47] You know, keep the house.

[00:11:49] With the larger sized blocks, what I'm, you know, I don't love renovations but generally

[00:11:56] to get an older, sorry, a larger block, you're buying a slightly older house.

[00:12:00] Yeah.

[00:12:00] And a slightly older house needs a bit of a renovation to just freshen it up to get good tenants

[00:12:05] or to get a good resale.

[00:12:07] So I've done a few little renovations along the way as well.

[00:12:10] Though development is my main focus.

[00:12:11] But I'm finding that in doing those little one into two type developments, there's usually

[00:12:17] a small renovation to go with it.

[00:12:19] Yeah.

[00:12:19] It would be different if I was doing five townhouses knocking over a house.

[00:12:23] Yeah.

[00:12:23] But I'm not.

[00:12:24] So I like that small, small development space.

[00:12:27] Most of that because they're battle axe blocks is via DA, development applications through

[00:12:33] council.

[00:12:33] Yep.

[00:12:34] And then subsequent construction certificates.

[00:12:37] And then from the buyer's agent side, I am doing some work with some clients who are

[00:12:41] enjoying adding granny flats.

[00:12:43] Yes.

[00:12:43] Under complying development in the backyard.

[00:12:46] Yep.

[00:12:46] As a nice, simple and quick process.

[00:12:50] And I like the granny flat space because to put a house in the backyard around Newcastle at

[00:12:55] the moment, you're generally looking at about $500,000, maybe up to $600,000.

[00:13:00] Yeah.

[00:13:00] You can get a conventional granny flat for $220,000, maybe a little less, or a manufactured

[00:13:08] home, a bit over $100,000.

[00:13:11] Yeah.

[00:13:11] Generally a slightly smaller footprint that manufactured on site, craned onto site.

[00:13:17] The benefit of the granny flats is you don't need a garage.

[00:13:20] You don't need a carport.

[00:13:21] You don't need a driveway.

[00:13:23] Yeah.

[00:13:23] You don't need to upgrade your sewer and put a second connection in.

[00:13:26] So again, you can keep those costs lower and also build costs around Newcastle at the

[00:13:31] moment are about $3,000 a metre plus GST.

[00:13:35] Yeah.

[00:13:36] So if you don't have to build 100 square metres of building, you've just saved $330,000.

[00:13:42] Yeah.

[00:13:42] So if you can keep that down to about the 50, 60 square metres, you're in for $150,000,

[00:13:48] $200,000.

[00:13:50] And the market still sees it as a two-bedroom granny flat, two-bedroom house, which rents

[00:13:55] for very close to what a three-bedroom house would.

[00:13:59] Yeah.

[00:13:59] And I guess if your strategy is very much like a long-term hold, that's what I said.

[00:14:08] I talked with a lot of people about these elements that you might have a block that's suitable

[00:14:13] for either a dual lock or a granny flat, but a lot of it's looking at what's your long-term

[00:14:17] strategy as well.

[00:14:18] Is it a long-term hold?

[00:14:22] And what sort of borrowing capacity do you have?

[00:14:26] Because that can determine your strategy too.

[00:14:28] If it's a long-term hold or if you do have a strategy that you do need to sell one to

[00:14:32] lower the debt and keep one, maybe claim some depreciation on the new property, for example,

[00:14:38] there can be a place, but I guess a lot of it is really understanding, isn't it, the needs,

[00:14:43] the needs of the buyer, the needs of even what their strategy is for what's next.

[00:14:49] They may have to get out.

[00:14:51] So then do you find sometimes that's really getting a good understanding of their long-term

[00:14:56] strategy too?

[00:14:58] Yeah, exactly, Nathan.

[00:14:59] There's a couple of considerations there.

[00:15:01] So the first one is that property really is a game of finance.

[00:15:05] Finance and it's not the lack of properties you can buy and things you can do with them.

[00:15:11] It's the lack of or the reduced ability to get finance to buy as many of those as you

[00:15:16] can and develop them if you choose.

[00:15:18] Yeah.

[00:15:20] So again, as I mentioned, to build a new house at $500,000 to $600,000, up till now there

[00:15:27] was lots of Newcastle suburbs that you could buy in for $600,000, $700,000, but it never

[00:15:33] made sense to spend $500,000 or $600,000 to build a new house in those suburbs.

[00:15:38] Yep.

[00:15:39] So as prices move up, it will become – I mean, the duplex and the dual occupancies work really

[00:15:47] well where the suburb price point is higher or when the build cost is lower.

[00:15:52] That's right.

[00:15:53] So that's one thing.

[00:15:57] Like it's all well and good to say, hey, I want to build a dual occupancy.

[00:15:59] I want to make money and pay down the debt, but the reality is you may not be making a

[00:16:05] massive uplift if you're in at that affordable end of the market.

[00:16:09] Yep.

[00:16:09] The better way to manufacture capital is to go in at a higher price point if you want to

[00:16:18] subdivide, need to sell and make that equity.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:21] However, even having said that, around the $900 million price point, those are some nice

[00:16:29] capital growth suburbs and if you've got enough room, you can pop the granny flat in the backyard.

[00:16:33] You know, the house might rent for $600 a week.

[00:16:37] Granny flat – a smaller granny flat would rent for $550 a week.

[00:16:42] Yeah.

[00:16:42] But cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars less.

[00:16:44] So your yield is actually better from doing the granny flat.

[00:16:48] Yeah.

[00:16:48] And if you're not planning on quitting your day job anytime soon, I would recommend to most

[00:16:55] people that they consider a house and granny flat.

[00:16:58] Yeah.

[00:16:58] You know, the rental growth we're seeing around Australia still continues.

[00:17:03] Yep.

[00:17:03] You know, it's called the cost of living crisis.

[00:17:05] Yeah, that's right.

[00:17:05] But the reality is yields continue to go up.

[00:17:08] Rents continue to go up.

[00:17:09] Yep.

[00:17:09] And that helps serviceability for the people that own those properties.

[00:17:13] Yeah.

[00:17:14] That's right.

[00:17:15] And these properties, and I think let's spend some time talking into that scenario.

[00:17:20] And I love on your website, and you use that word, I thought it was really good.

[00:17:24] You talked about property value adds.

[00:17:27] And I just thought, I've never heard anyone call it that.

[00:17:29] But I thought it's such a great space.

[00:17:31] Because I talk a lot about trying to keep a property on the side if you can, because generally the uplift and the feasibility, whether it be to sell, to hold, generally stacks up a lot better.

[00:17:45] And I look at properties all across New South Wales, for example.

[00:17:51] There's so many properties that are obviously under the low rise.

[00:17:54] Sorry, the CDC, the SEP for secondary dwellings.

[00:17:59] The block just needs to be 450 square metres, 12 metres wide.

[00:18:04] There's a huge amount of infill properties across up and down the East Coast and even regional areas of New South Wales where there's a massive opportunity to buy these properties.

[00:18:17] And like you said, put a granny flat, ideally CDC, in the backyard.

[00:18:23] Yeah, and if not CDC, DA is still acceptable.

[00:18:27] You know, if there's a little bit of flood, bushfire or another consideration, it's not a no.

[00:18:32] It's just a, what do I need to do?

[00:18:34] Yeah.

[00:18:35] Is there a sewer pipe there?

[00:18:36] Okay, do I need to build over it?

[00:18:38] Do I need to replace it, encase it, do some extra peering?

[00:18:43] There'll be some extra costs in doing that on that block.

[00:18:46] So should we say, well, you know, if it's going to cost us 20 grand, maybe we should go and buy another house that's 15, 20 grand more and we get a nicer house perhaps?

[00:18:55] Yeah.

[00:18:56] Or do we like this property enough that we go, actually, this is a really nice house.

[00:18:59] We're happy to put this in the portfolio.

[00:19:02] No one will ever see that 20 grand of sewer replacement that we paid to do.

[00:19:06] Yeah.

[00:19:06] But this is a good long-term hold.

[00:19:08] So we like this property and we'll be buying it.

[00:19:10] Yeah.

[00:19:11] Yep.

[00:19:12] And it's interesting, isn't it?

[00:19:13] Like some people, when it does have to get in the DA pathway, they can get a bit concerned.

[00:19:18] But I think a lot of people don't realise this, that even for a granny flat, when you do a DA, you can still use elements of the set when actually submitting your DA.

[00:19:30] I've had clients before that had no idea that actually, even when you're doing a DA, you can still use the elements of the set.

[00:19:37] For example, the minimum lot size, all those different elements.

[00:19:41] It might contradict what's in the DCP, but the SEMP overrides the DCP.

[00:19:48] So if there's a 450 square metre across New South Wales, in that particular zoning, provided it's applicable zoning, that residential zoning, you can do a secondary dwelling under the DA.

[00:20:02] And they can't reject it based on that matter.

[00:20:04] It's a funny one.

[00:20:06] Like I've seen it over the last, probably, I think 2011, the SEMP came in for the secondary dwellings.

[00:20:13] And I've seen it over and over where people have just, they sat on it for three, four, five years because they just assumed they couldn't do a granny flat because they'd read the DCP, but not the SEMP.

[00:20:26] Yeah, it's got some great little rules in there.

[00:20:29] And the other thing that is underused, I think, is CDC for studios.

[00:20:34] Yeah.

[00:20:34] Like, you know, even just the extra income you can get from a studio, which it's not technically a secondary dwelling, but the flexibility it can provide people on their properties.

[00:20:44] Yeah.

[00:20:45] You know, for that extra bedroom, you know, a little self-contained or majority self-contained little space.

[00:20:52] Yeah.

[00:20:52] That where maybe they just come inside to share a bathroom, a kitchen.

[00:20:57] Yeah.

[00:20:57] Some communal time or something.

[00:20:59] Yeah.

[00:20:59] But, you know, there's also good opportunities there for that studio, I think, that's underutilised because everyone goes, well, can I fit a house there?

[00:21:07] Yeah.

[00:21:08] Because if I can, I probably want to do that.

[00:21:10] Yeah.

[00:21:10] It's like, well, should you do a house?

[00:21:12] Maybe a granny flats.

[00:21:13] Yeah.

[00:21:13] Better long-term option.

[00:21:14] Yeah.

[00:21:14] And then, you know, maybe a studio does what you actually need to, particularly in areas close to universities where people are a bit more creative on who they're renting to and how and that sort of things.

[00:21:26] I mean, staying within the legalities of insurance and permissibility and everything.

[00:21:32] But, like, I think studios are a space that could be used better.

[00:21:36] Yeah.

[00:21:37] Yeah.

[00:21:37] And I think, obviously, kids are leaving home a lot later now too, aren't they?

[00:21:42] So, yeah.

[00:21:44] Talking about the housing crisis.

[00:21:45] Obviously, there's a shortage of housing for people that are immigrating to Australia, also people that are affordable, the affordable element of housing.

[00:21:55] But you've also got a lot of younger people who are parents who could potentially be empty nesters but aren't because purely because their kids just can't get into the market.

[00:22:05] So, yeah.

[00:22:06] So, that's where the studios can be really, like, a short-term goal but can potentially then become a bit of a springboard then to become an income generator when the kids eventually are able to get on their own two feet.

[00:22:22] Yeah.

[00:22:22] So, yeah.

[00:22:22] Look, they're not a product I kind of recommend or follow closely but, yeah, I think there's some good opportunities there for the kids, for the multi-generational families, particularly with families where they're comfortable sharing spaces anyway.

[00:22:36] Yeah.

[00:22:36] But then they get private spaces in addition and they're very close to granny flats but not quite and, you know, the benefit of a studio is no contributions.

[00:22:44] Yeah.

[00:22:45] Yeah.

[00:22:46] So.

[00:22:46] Yeah, and that's okay.

[00:22:47] The contributions are a big one, aren't they, that I've seen that where people just, they've just assumed contributions are relevant to dual occupancies or duplexes, not realising that actually they apply to the granny flats.

[00:23:03] Yep.

[00:23:04] You'll find most councils have a reduced rate of contributions for granny flats but it can still be significant.

[00:23:10] Yeah.

[00:23:10] You know, it can still be $10,000, $20,000 just for a granny flat.

[00:23:14] Yep.

[00:23:14] And if it hasn't been factored into the feasibility, it can be a killer.

[00:23:19] And so in terms of, look, we'll jump to that in a moment just in terms of your buyers agency.

[00:23:26] But, look, in terms of your company, Brickport, like how did that come about?

[00:23:32] And even the name, I'm interested to find out how did you come up with the name Brickport for your buyers agency?

[00:23:41] Yeah, look, in mirroring a couple of people in the property space, it wasn't my first development but it was a street I grew on while I grew up on, lived on for many years.

[00:23:51] And my parents owned property there for almost 40 years.

[00:23:56] And even, it's interesting, my parents sold that property off market, didn't advertise it, didn't sell it through an agent.

[00:24:02] And, you know, here's me talking to people about, you know, most people list on the market.

[00:24:07] But, you know, to see some people in their 70s just sell the property off market, it's, there's always interesting things that surprise you in property.

[00:24:14] So, the name Brickport came about from the street I grew up in.

[00:24:20] And then the company, I'm like, you know, I'm doing all this property stuff.

[00:24:25] I'm looking at property.

[00:24:26] I'm seeing all these good deals and properties.

[00:24:29] I'm familiar with areas.

[00:24:30] And my area is Newcastle and the surrounds of Newcastle but very much kind of niched into that Newcastle area.

[00:24:39] And so, what I'm, I'm looking at properties there both for myself and, you know, I purchased my own little properties along the way and continue to do my own small developments.

[00:24:49] And the types of properties I'm recommending to clients is the types of deals I'm doing myself.

[00:24:54] It's like, you know, I've been in the market doing these deals.

[00:24:57] I continue to do joint ventures with other people as well where it makes sense.

[00:25:02] Still open to those types of deals.

[00:25:04] And then I project manage a few small developments for clients as well.

[00:25:09] If someone wants a granny flat product, I don't need to project manage that.

[00:25:13] There's enough competent granny flat companies that are absolutely niched into that area.

[00:25:18] If we're talking about interactions with consultants, DAs, working with the right builders, then I've got a layer of value that I can add there.

[00:25:27] If people are like, hey, Richard, I really don't know which consultants.

[00:25:31] I don't know who's a good one.

[00:25:32] And I don't even know what I'd ask them or what I'd brief them on on what I should be building.

[00:25:37] Yeah.

[00:25:37] Then I'm more than happy to do that project management.

[00:25:40] But the main focus at Brickport these days is the buyer's agency.

[00:25:43] And then I have a value add for people that may want a dual occupancy or small development managed there on top.

[00:25:50] Yeah.

[00:25:51] And then as I'm doing my own projects and I can project manage similar type stuff, I'm also doing some disability accommodation for my own personal portfolio.

[00:26:02] I like the yields.

[00:26:04] There are significant risks in the space.

[00:26:06] And this is a little niche area that I could, again, go off and chat about for hours.

[00:26:11] So maybe another day for lots of details on that one.

[00:26:14] But I am also managing some SDA properties for clients as well.

[00:26:20] Yeah.

[00:26:20] Where I'm talking with the providers from up front going, you know, what's our demand?

[00:26:25] If we build this type of product, you know, do we have demand in this area?

[00:26:29] And I'm all about keeping that risk low, you know, maximising the probability of occupancy.

[00:26:35] Yeah.

[00:26:36] And maximising the probability of good long-term rental incomes.

[00:26:40] Yeah.

[00:26:41] Yeah.

[00:26:41] Yeah.

[00:26:42] That's great.

[00:26:43] Well, let's talk a little bit about the buyers agency.

[00:26:46] Obviously, probably more now than ever, you see there's buyers agents popping up here, there and everywhere.

[00:26:53] And obviously, I like the fact that you've got a niche, like you've niched down into an A key area.

[00:27:00] So obviously, you've got buyers agents that do everything.

[00:27:03] But I think I like the value of actually someone who niches down, like really becomes a specialist.

[00:27:10] I think there's just huge value in that.

[00:27:13] That's why I really, I wanted to get you on because I just love the fact you see being able to value add to a property.

[00:27:20] You've seen the potential of that.

[00:27:21] You do that yourself as well.

[00:27:23] I always say to people, like when you're doing this yourself, you're able to look at properties through the lens of if this was your property, if you were looking to buy this, how would you look at it?

[00:27:35] How would you tackle it?

[00:27:36] How would you view it?

[00:27:37] And I just find it's a great space to be able to help people.

[00:27:41] But yeah, what brought about the buyers agency?

[00:27:46] Like what actually made you decide to go down that path?

[00:27:49] Was it something a long time ago that you'd planned to do?

[00:27:52] Or was it just you were looking for sites anyway and you just decided it was something you wanted to help people with?

[00:27:58] Because I've only met you a few times at some networking events, but I've always just found you someone who's very helpful.

[00:28:04] You like to help people and that sort of shone through.

[00:28:09] Yeah, there was a couple of parts to it, Nathan.

[00:28:11] The first one was I'd done my buyer's agent certificate eight or nine years ago now.

[00:28:18] So that's a qualification or certificate I've had for a number of years.

[00:28:21] And then that transitioned across to a real estate license with the way fair trading changed the setup.

[00:28:29] So I'd had that for a long time.

[00:28:30] And initially I'd done it to do some work in the larger land subdivision space with another mate of mine within our mutual network.

[00:28:41] And then that had sort of gone a little bit quiet.

[00:28:45] And I'd continued to do the property deals.

[00:28:48] And they were coming along nicely.

[00:28:50] But, you know, they were longer term deals.

[00:28:53] They were generating some equity.

[00:28:55] They were generating some increasing rents, yields and cash flow.

[00:28:58] But it wasn't really a means of getting into property full time.

[00:29:03] And as a consultant, you know, as an architect, an engineer, you've got that constant cash flow coming through.

[00:29:11] Yeah.

[00:29:12] But as a developer, you've got the paydays, which are sporadic and you're subject to a bit more of the markets and how things are going there.

[00:29:22] If you've got renovations and small developments thrown in, you've got some uncertainties on what you've got on the site.

[00:29:28] You know, you can generally pick, is there a risk that there'll be asbestos here?

[00:29:32] You know, you develop a bit of an eye for, you know, you go into the kitchen and bathrooms and the eaves and you're like, oh, yeah.

[00:29:37] Yeah.

[00:29:39] 95% sure that's asbestos.

[00:29:41] Let's put another, you know, four grand in the fees over the removal of that.

[00:29:45] You know, there's probably going to be a little sprinkling of it somewhere in the backyard buried in a hole where someone's just thrown the offcuts.

[00:29:51] So let's pop another couple of grand there to just tidy that up.

[00:29:56] So the buyer's agency, I guess, was a love of property and, you know, just looking at properties without being paid because that's what I like to do.

[00:30:04] Yeah.

[00:30:05] And just getting creative on what I might do with them.

[00:30:07] Yep.

[00:30:08] And go, you know, is there a way to monetize this and actually, you know, build up that property professional side of things.

[00:30:17] Yeah.

[00:30:18] To continue doing my property deals, to continue doing projects, to help other people and to be in that property space full time.

[00:30:26] So Brickport was really that means of being able to get into property full time, maintain the capital growth and the yield from the properties, but not be fully reliant on that.

[00:30:37] Yeah.

[00:30:38] You know, 13 interest rate rises later.

[00:30:41] I think people are finding that they're positively geared.

[00:30:43] Property portfolios aren't quite so resilient and serviceability is required by all the banks to actually borrow more money.

[00:30:53] It's like, you know.

[00:30:53] Yeah.

[00:30:54] PAYG is loved by the banks, but there are those of us that don't necessarily want to do PAYG for life.

[00:31:03] Yeah.

[00:31:03] Yeah.

[00:31:04] So, you know, you've got to get out and start that business and earn the income and have those multiple income streams through both the passive properties potentially developing and maybe a business related to that where you can help other people do those same things.

[00:31:19] Yep.

[00:31:20] For themselves, you know, the sort of – the people that you paid when you first started out when you didn't know anything and you're like, oh, I've heard this developing's good.

[00:31:28] I've heard I can add value, but, you know, what am I looking at, you know?

[00:31:32] How wide's the block need to be?

[00:31:34] How big?

[00:31:35] And then all the stuff you don't even know about easements and, you know, that's all the value I can add now.

[00:31:43] And I'm like – I tell people, I'm like, you know, I'm here to stop you making silly mistakes.

[00:31:48] Yes.

[00:31:48] Like from stuff that you don't know could be a problem.

[00:31:51] Yeah.

[00:31:52] I'm like, you can never guarantee anything, but I'm like, I'm here to be, you know, get you to 98%, 99% sure that this plan we've got is achievable and can be done.

[00:32:03] Can't guarantee – can't guarantee things.

[00:32:06] But, you know, I'm here to minimize that risk.

[00:32:09] Yep.

[00:32:09] And make sure that you're here to successfully purchase the property that we've picked out and get ready to buy the next one and the next one after that.

[00:32:18] It's really good.

[00:32:19] And I think that's the advantage, I think, of all the experience that led you up to starting your buyers agency is you're actually backed by experience.

[00:32:31] You're backed by somebody who's doing the projects yourself.

[00:32:33] You're obviously backed by someone who's helped coordinate networking events.

[00:32:38] You're very well connected as well within the industry.

[00:32:40] And I think that's absolutely essential for anyone who's an investor and wanting to engage a buyers agent.

[00:32:50] I think that's why I thought it was vital to get you on because there are buyers agents out there who are just trying to make a quick buck, don't have any background, any experience.

[00:33:00] I just think someone who niches down, you can get really laser focused on what you do and give sound knowledge and advice.

[00:33:10] And as you said, you can stop people making head at those mistakes that can cost them tens of thousands, even more.

[00:33:19] And that's it, Nathan.

[00:33:20] I see there's a large surge of buyers agents at the moment.

[00:33:24] And, you know, I haven't been around forever as a buyers agent, but I've been around for a damn long time as a property investor and a small developer.

[00:33:32] And I see some of these new buyers agents asking the question of, you know, I don't have my own property portfolio, they might say.

[00:33:39] And, you know, I don't, they haven't had any clients yet.

[00:33:41] And they're like, well, how do I get the first one?

[00:33:43] Like, how do I tell people that I am an expert buyers agent when they haven't bought anything yet?

[00:33:49] They don't have their own portfolio and they're trying to work this out.

[00:33:52] And, you know, some of them will do a great job and be fantastic.

[00:33:58] But I'm sure there's lots that many of them don't know as well.

[00:34:01] And that's the value that I like to bring, that experience.

[00:34:04] It's like I'd love to say that I've only ever made money and I've made lots of it and everything's gone according to plan.

[00:34:10] But, geez, I've lost a bit too, Nathan.

[00:34:12] I've lost multiple six figures.

[00:34:15] And it hurt me for a long time to talk about that in the details.

[00:34:18] But, you know, that bought me a lot of experience.

[00:34:21] Yeah.

[00:34:22] And it taught me a lot about who to work with, the right people to work with.

[00:34:26] And a big part of property is working with the right people because, you know, you can kind of work with anyone when things are going well.

[00:34:36] Yeah.

[00:34:36] But when things aren't going well and aren't going according to plan and someone's honest and upfront and says, hey, this is just not working.

[00:34:42] Yeah.

[00:34:43] Like when you've got to have those difficult conversations, you've got to be working with the right people.

[00:34:48] Yeah.

[00:34:48] Because it can go bad and it can be very stressful for multiple people.

[00:34:54] Yeah.

[00:34:54] And you just want to make sure that whilst stressful, you work towards a resolution and make sure that everyone gets out of that problem, you know, as best they can.

[00:35:05] And, yeah, when you find that $60,000 buried asbestos problem, it's like, all right, well, let's fix it and then move on to the next bit.

[00:35:14] Yeah.

[00:35:15] Let's not make it worse than it is.

[00:35:17] It's got to be dealt with.

[00:35:18] So, you know, what are the options?

[00:35:19] Yeah.

[00:35:19] Yeah.

[00:35:20] Yeah.

[00:35:20] And, look, even myself, I've had some big losses in stepping out and so much so that you get a little bit gun shy for a little while.

[00:35:29] I don't know if you found that, but I know myself when you've taken a few hits, you can become gun shy and then it can take a while to shake the dust off and go again.

[00:35:39] But one thing I've found is that you talk to a lot of really successful investors and developers who've made like eight, nine, eight figures plus.

[00:35:49] A lot of them will tell you stories about where really big hits they talk and some of the lessons they learned and just how diligent it made them and how much it made them realise just to really knuckle down, get that dream team around you of people who, whether it be looking over a contract, a great planning solicitor, whether it be a great planner.

[00:36:15] And, you know, having that team all around you just to ensure that you really just, you know, you might be saying no to a lot more properties than you're saying yes to.

[00:36:26] Well, you should be anyway.

[00:36:28] But just being able to really just ensure that there's lots of upside, that there's, like you said, multiple, multiple exit strategies, but also contingencies and really, really just factoring in all of those elements.

[00:36:47] Yeah, like on the small development side of things, like you say, I use the term intrinsic value and you've got, if you've got a house on a block with intrinsic value, like it rarely makes sense to knock down a house to build a duplex.

[00:37:01] Yeah.

[00:37:03] Like even a site I looked at at the weekend that went for a crazy amount of money up in Newcastle and, you know, it was being marketed as a five-town-hour site.

[00:37:12] I don't think it worked at the price it was purchased at, but, you know, possibly a better use was to keep the existing house, which it would have cost another $550,000, $600,000 to rebuild.

[00:37:23] Yeah.

[00:37:23] You know, if you had knocked it down to put a couple of houses on there and just put a couple more in the backyard.

[00:37:29] Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:29] And then all of a sudden it's like, well, let's keep that intrinsic value.

[00:37:33] We'll give it a coat of paint.

[00:37:34] Yeah.

[00:37:34] We'll build some in the backyard.

[00:37:35] But, you know, if that doesn't go according to plan, can you just afford to keep the house?

[00:37:40] Yeah.

[00:37:40] If we give it a coat of paint.

[00:37:41] Yeah.

[00:37:42] We can increase the rent a bit.

[00:37:43] Is that enough to keep it?

[00:37:45] Yeah.

[00:37:45] What about if we put a granny flat in the backyard?

[00:37:47] Yeah.

[00:37:48] You know, if you get a transportable granny flat, you know, pop that in the backyard for five, six, ten years and then, you know, come and pick it up in ten years' time after you've got your DA and the value of the land's appreciated.

[00:37:59] And maybe then it's the time to come and do your townhouses.

[00:38:01] Yes.

[00:38:02] Yeah.

[00:38:02] That's all right.

[00:38:03] Yield's not always the most vital element.

[00:38:05] I've – we've recently looked at some feasibilities of like a triplex versus two detached dwellings.

[00:38:12] Like often the two detached dwellings will trump the triplex.

[00:38:17] Obviously, they're a different product.

[00:38:20] But, yeah, you're right.

[00:38:22] Like often a five townhouse site, it makes better sense to keep the dwelling, do two on the back, lessen the value – like, you know, sell the front house if you need to.

[00:38:33] You get the land quite cheap at the back then because really that's where you make the money is in the land.

[00:38:42] Obviously, you've got the capital growth element of the actual product.

[00:38:45] But when it comes to actually develop and develop to sell or develop to create a product, if you can lessen the value – if you can lessen the overall cost of what it's costing you for that land, that's where you can't make money off the build.

[00:39:00] No, exactly.

[00:39:01] And as you say, like if that land is zoned R3 or R4 but it's still permissible to build a dual occupancy, keep the house and build another one, it's like, well, maybe we've now got, you know, a couple of houses worth a mil, a couple of mil each.

[00:39:15] Yeah.

[00:39:16] But they only cost us a house price to build.

[00:39:18] Whereas if we're building something that ends up being strata title or with shared walls, you know, maybe that value is significantly lower.

[00:39:25] Yeah.

[00:39:25] So there are times when those – less is more.

[00:39:30] Yep.

[00:39:30] And I think a lot of it comes down to – I'm not sure if you've found this in your industry but sometimes a lack of patience or just literally someone looking at the overlays and seeing that there's five townhouses on this site, five here, there's six over here.

[00:39:46] So they just automatically think because that's what's been done in the past that this has to be townhouse.

[00:39:52] But that's – but when you're not running multiple feasibilities and really, you know, really just taking the time and being patient to check all scenarios, whether it be granny flat, whether it be a dual lock, detached dual lock, whether it be keep that one house, two at the back or whether it be a knockdown at five.

[00:40:08] Like I think it's smart planning to run four or five, six scenarios and see which one stacks up.

[00:40:18] Yeah.

[00:40:18] And have a look at it and go, you know, what's my long-term plan for my property portfolio?

[00:40:22] Yeah.

[00:40:24] And if you can keep that house, pop the granny flat in the backyard, cover that loan and then be able to get out and accumulate another asset, another property, maybe that works better than spending 18 months, two years on that development project where you've got to sell everything anyway to get your pre-finance.

[00:40:42] Yeah.

[00:40:42] High level of risk.

[00:40:43] Higher risk.

[00:40:44] Yeah.

[00:40:45] More uncertainty around a few areas.

[00:40:47] Like if – it's almost like the deal you're doing now is the least important thing.

[00:40:53] The most important thing is how to get into the next one.

[00:40:56] Yeah.

[00:40:57] Like if this one shuts down that future opportunity, is it the right deal or do you just acknowledge that, hey, my borrowing capacity is quite limited so I just need to get into the market, buy something within that capacity and I'll do that now and I'll sit on it.

[00:41:14] But when I've got a little bit more capacity, then I'll pop the granny flat on the back of it.

[00:41:18] You know, I've got some capital growth so that should have paid for my granny flat deposits and then I'll just borrow the rest for the build and I'll include the rental income from that granny flat in the serviceability calculation or at least that's what your broker does for you.

[00:41:31] Yeah.

[00:41:31] So, you know, you're probably closer to being able to build that granny flat than you think.

[00:41:35] Yeah.

[00:41:36] And then that property continues to increase in growth and then it's about the next property after that.

[00:41:42] Yeah.

[00:41:42] But if you'd have just gone, you know, well, I'm going to buy that little apartment or townhouse, you know, a little bit further out and so maybe you should have gone a little bit further out again to get that land component to build that granny flat to.

[00:41:55] Yeah.

[00:41:56] Like you, I'm not saying don't buy the apartment or the townhouse because sometimes that proximity to, you know, the beach, the CBD or other things has that higher probability of capital growth and good capital growth.

[00:42:10] Yeah.

[00:42:11] But don't discount that land component and what you can do with it longer term.

[00:42:16] Yeah.

[00:42:17] It's, it's, no one will ever regret owning big parcels of land in their property portfolio.

[00:42:23] No, that's right.

[00:42:24] Right.

[00:42:24] And I think even, even if someone isn't quite ready to value add in the back, the back of that property, it's smart, isn't it?

[00:42:33] Really, if you are looking at doing something, you might be a couple of years down the track, but look at it, look at a property that has value add potential in the backyard.

[00:42:42] Are you, are you finding that you're spending a lot of time helping people whose strategy may, they may not be able to do the granny flat straight away, but you're sort of looking a few years down the line for them and really helping them generate a bit of a plan of attack?

[00:42:56] Yeah.

[00:42:56] Yeah, definitely.

[00:42:57] And even a recent purchase for a client to add the granny flat, they're a first home buyer.

[00:43:02] So initially they just want the house.

[00:43:03] Yes.

[00:43:04] And they're like, you know, in a, in a short period of time after that, we'll look to add the, the granny flat in the backyard.

[00:43:10] It's, it's their first house, not their forever house.

[00:43:13] Yeah.

[00:43:14] So they're not.

[00:43:14] Not, not emotionally attached too much to it.

[00:43:17] Exactly.

[00:43:17] Like, you know, they recognize it for a stepping stone that will help them get into property on the property ladder.

[00:43:23] They understand that, you know, the income's good.

[00:43:25] They'll continue to get pay rises, but longer term, they need serviceability for loans, for more loans.

[00:43:30] How do you maintain that?

[00:43:32] Where you pop the granny flat in the backyard, you get two incomes instead of one.

[00:43:36] And that helps you to continue to grow in the future.

[00:43:39] That's great.

[00:43:40] Look, even for time's sake, I'd love to get you back for another episode.

[00:43:44] I really want to talk into SDA and I might just ask you this question just to whet the appetite of our listeners,

[00:43:51] because I think a lot of investors, developers, builder developers, mums and dads are interested in obviously holding long-term properties.

[00:44:01] Can, just tell me a little bit about SDA as a granny flat.

[00:44:06] Can you do SDA, can you do a granny flat in the backyard as an SDA?

[00:44:11] You can do granny flats as SDA is the short answer.

[00:44:15] Yes.

[00:44:16] I've not done any.

[00:44:17] I've always done houses for SDA.

[00:44:19] Yes.

[00:44:20] And the reason I do houses is because for people with a disability, they need space, they need rooms,

[00:44:29] they need circulation spaces and a granny flat can't fit everything in it that someone with a disability needs.

[00:44:36] Yes.

[00:44:36] You'll be making compromises, which means that the percentage of people with NDIS funding that would be eligible and capable of living in just a granny flat is a smaller percentage of the pool,

[00:44:51] which means, you know, what's the probability of you having an expensive build and then getting someone to live in it to get a good return on your money?

[00:45:00] Yeah.

[00:45:00] Well, I'm not comfortable with that risk for most properties.

[00:45:05] There are ways to make it work, but the short answer is, yes, it's possible, but you've decreased the probability of finding the right tenant because, for example,

[00:45:15] if you build a granny flat, most people have funding to live with multiple other people because, you know,

[00:45:22] if you've got a staff member on site preparing food, meals, dinners, not everyone gets their own personal chef.

[00:45:29] So, you know, we have someone preparing dinner for, say, two or three people.

[00:45:33] Yeah.

[00:45:34] So people don't have their money and their NDIS plans to live exclusively on their own unless they have very complex and severe needs.

[00:45:44] Yeah.

[00:45:44] And then a granny flat may not have enough space in it to have everything that that person needs to live their best life.

[00:45:50] Yeah.

[00:45:51] Yeah.

[00:45:51] So ideally a home or possibly like a duplex scenario or a group home?

[00:45:58] Yeah.

[00:45:59] And, again, group homes in the disability space is a bad term.

[00:46:04] Yeah.

[00:46:04] But group homes under New South Wales planning.

[00:46:06] They're trying to get away from that a little bit, aren't they?

[00:46:08] Yeah.

[00:46:09] And, you know, the sweet spot if you're building a house for people in wheelchairs, so high physical support or fully accessible, a sweet spot is two residents.

[00:46:17] Yep.

[00:46:17] Yep.

[00:46:18] But, you know, where you can two living areas, then everyone's got their own space.

[00:46:22] Yeah.

[00:46:22] But you get the economies of looking after two people in the one house with one lot of staff.

[00:46:27] Yes.

[00:46:28] On hand to do that.

[00:46:29] Yeah.

[00:46:29] And then if you could put two of those houses next to each other or in close proximity, that gives more options for the care providers also.

[00:46:36] Excellent.

[00:46:37] So it's not just about building houses.

[00:46:38] It's about building homes.

[00:46:40] And the third but very important thing is you're also building a workplace for, you know, multiple other people to come and do eight or ten and 12-hour shifts in.

[00:46:49] Or maybe just pop in support.

[00:46:51] So there's a lot of factors.

[00:46:52] It's not just a house you're building, Nathan.

[00:46:54] Yeah.

[00:46:54] Yeah.

[00:46:55] No, you're right.

[00:46:56] And we do quite a bit, especially on the Central Coast and Sydney in that SDA space.

[00:47:01] And it's right, there's a lot of stakeholders that you've got to really be in negotiation with and the participants and obviously the providers.

[00:47:11] As you said, you've got to make it a great workable environment for staff.

[00:47:16] So there's so many moving pieces.

[00:47:18] And look, it's probably a two-, three-part episode on its own, I think.

[00:47:23] But I'd love to get you back to talk about SDA at some stage if that's something you're open to.

[00:47:28] Because you are, I feel like you're a bit of a leader in that space when it comes to a, just a consultant or even a, just from a buyer's agency, a consultant, even development management point of view.

[00:47:40] It'd be great to get you back just to talk into that space.

[00:47:44] Because I think it's a very interesting space.

[00:47:47] Yeah, it's a great little space.

[00:47:48] And I love and I don't love the phrase, you know, building forever homes for people that really need them.

[00:47:55] Because unfortunately a lot of mum and dad investors have been sucked into, hey, do this for all the right reasons.

[00:48:02] Yeah.

[00:48:03] You know, there's a particular street in southeast Queensland where a particular builder has built 16 three-resident high-physiol support houses with basically the same floor plan on the same street in the same suburb.

[00:48:16] Wow.

[00:48:17] That's not counting all the other SDA properties in that suburb that was sold by that company and other companies to investors.

[00:48:25] So, and again, this is one of the risks.

[00:48:28] There are areas in Melbourne that are significantly oversupplied at the moment.

[00:48:32] But one of the ways in which I avoid this is I do infill.

[00:48:36] Yes.

[00:48:36] So, I'm not building in new Greenfields estates.

[00:48:39] Yeah.

[00:48:39] That's not to say that Greenfields estates are bad.

[00:48:42] You just need to have the relationships with the providers to ensure that there is sufficient demand that in, you know, a year, 18 months time when your house is completed.

[00:48:50] Yeah.

[00:48:51] That there's still going to be a high probability of occupancy.

[00:48:54] Yeah.

[00:48:54] But one of the best ways to ensure demand is, you know, make sure you're close to infrastructure, public transport, bus routes, where people's family are.

[00:49:03] You know, that's kind of discounted a lot.

[00:49:05] Yeah.

[00:49:05] But just having family nearby, like there's a – someone was looking to move into one of my properties.

[00:49:11] They were currently supported down your way, down around Nowra.

[00:49:14] But all the family was up on the central coast.

[00:49:16] So, it was really important for them to have a place much closer to where their family was.

[00:49:21] Yeah.

[00:49:21] Yeah.

[00:49:21] So, there are many moving parts, Nathan, and we could chat for hours and probably should do so in the future.

[00:49:28] Yeah.

[00:49:28] Oh, we've whet the appetite anyway.

[00:49:30] But look, we might wrap it up, but how can people get in touch?

[00:49:35] A lot of people that listen to this, they've generated wealth, they're looking to build their portfolio.

[00:49:40] A lot of people – the dream is to hold.

[00:49:43] That's always the dream.

[00:49:44] Hold.

[00:49:44] Hold the stock.

[00:49:45] Generate capital growth.

[00:49:46] How can people get in touch?

[00:49:49] People wanting to do projects in, I'm guessing, Newcastle, Central Coast.

[00:49:53] Do you cover those areas or –

[00:49:55] Yeah, predominantly Newcastle.

[00:49:57] Hunter.

[00:49:57] And then can stretch out to the lower Hunter and down to the Central Coast as required.

[00:50:00] Yeah.

[00:50:01] But the two ways to get in contact with me that I'd recommend is brickport.com.au,

[00:50:06] B-R-I-C-K-P-O-R-T, Brickport.

[00:50:09] And the other way to see lots of good content and advice and just seeing me out and about doing things is LinkedIn.

[00:50:16] So Richard Williams on LinkedIn.

[00:50:19] Obviously, I'm a connection of yours on there, Nate.

[00:50:21] Yeah, definitely.

[00:50:22] Definitely.

[00:50:22] We get to see you quite often out on site with your phone, hunting down good deals and showing us beautiful backyards and potential sites.

[00:50:31] And that's it.

[00:50:32] It's just about being out there and showing people and nice little basic things.

[00:50:36] You're always surprised at what people pay the most attention to on posts and nice little learning opportunities like fuse boxes,

[00:50:44] like having a quick look in the fuse board and going,

[00:50:47] how many thousand dollars worth of remediation works here if I do a bit of renovation work?

[00:50:52] Yeah.

[00:50:53] Just understanding these things as a good little learning process.

[00:50:56] Yeah.

[00:50:56] Well, it's been good.

[00:50:57] Good.

[00:50:58] Thanks for coming on.

[00:50:59] And yeah, like I said, we'll get you back to talk a little bit more about STA.

[00:51:03] And look, thanks for everyone for listening in.

[00:51:06] I'm sure you've got a lot of value out of this session.

[00:51:09] All of Richard's details are going to be in the show notes.

[00:51:11] So I encourage you to reach out if you're looking to value add or have someone who can secure you a site that has value add potential.

[00:51:20] Richard, especially in the Hunter, Richard's the man.

[00:51:23] Very knowledgeable, very switched on, very helpful.

[00:51:27] So feel free to reach out.

[00:51:28] Look, if you've enjoyed this episode, I want to encourage you, share it with your friends and family, colleagues, people that you know.

[00:51:35] And don't forget to like and subscribe.

[00:51:37] Thanks for listening in and we'll see you next week.