Navigating CDC Subdivisions with Dean Dehghan-Khalaji from Subdivision Certifiers

[00:00:01] As investors and developers, we see the world differently. This podcast uncovers the untold truths of what it really takes to become a multi-million dollar residential developer. I'm Nathan Battishall, let's get to work.

[00:00:19] Welcome to The Residential Developer. I'm the host of the podcast. My name is Nathan Battishall and today we're very privileged to have Dean from Subdivision Certifiers on with us.

[00:00:30] Thanks for having me, Nathan.

[00:00:31] Good to have you on.

[00:00:32] Yes.

[00:00:32] Ah, look, do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself, just professionally, personally, and maybe tell us a little bit about who Subdivision Certifiers are and what you guys do?

[00:00:42] Yep. So I'm a civil engineer. I worked, I came up through local government, working for local government for about 15 years in all, a lot of facets for engineering from design and then into development engineering, which we assess the applications,

[00:01:01] the applications and subdivision work certificates and subdivision work certificates for roads, drainage, anything related to development and subdivision certificates.

[00:01:10] And then with subdivision certificates.

[00:01:12] And then with subdivision certifiers.

[00:01:13] So it's a registered certifier for subdivisions and we do CDCs for subdivisions for dual occupancies and strata certificates.

[00:01:24] And we also do strata CDCs for DAs for medium to high density developments and their strata certificates.

[00:01:33] And we can also issue strata certificates where a DA application has strata subdivision included in it.

[00:01:41] In terms of Torrance Title DAs, we get involved with subdivision work certificates.

[00:01:46] So if it's a two lot, battle axe handle, we usually do the engineering approval for the driveway, stormwater and up to over 100 lot subdivisions where we approve the road drainage plans, detention basins, bulk earthworks.

[00:02:02] Yep.

[00:02:03] Yeah.

[00:02:03] Brilliant.

[00:02:04] And look, I think like for a lot of our clients that listen to this episode, to these podcast episodes, they're very much either residential investors, developers or mum and dad developers or people passionate about doing projects.

[00:02:19] And so obviously this episode, I really want to hone in on doing subdivisions via the CDC pathway.

[00:02:26] Yep.

[00:02:26] So essentially like especially for dual occupancies, duplexes under the low rise diversity code.

[00:02:32] And you want to tell us a little bit about that just in terms of the company you're a part of subdivision certifiers.

[00:02:39] So do you want to just walk us through a little bit about the low rise diversity code and how that works with subdivision?

[00:02:47] Yep.

[00:02:48] So under the low rise housing diversity code, it has allowed registered subdivision certifiers to issue subdivision CDCs and Torrance, Totten and Strata certificates for dual occupancy and multi-dwelling housing terraces in certain zones.

[00:03:06] And what it kind of does, it bypasses councils.

[00:03:10] So they will get a building CDC for a duplex and they'll come to us and get a subdivision CDC.

[00:03:17] And once the building is done, then they can get, we can endorse the subdivision certificate and it gets lodged to LRS.

[00:03:26] Yeah.

[00:03:26] And it's a pretty streamlined process.

[00:03:29] Just there's a lot of, it's like a checkbox type approval process.

[00:03:37] So it's just, I guess it's really reliant on the legislation.

[00:03:41] We have to comply with the legislation.

[00:03:42] So as long as everyone sort of supplies the right documentation, it is quite quick.

[00:03:48] It's a very quick process.

[00:03:49] Yeah.

[00:03:50] And I think that's probably what, in the past, a lot of investors or developers have been scared off by some of the delays that have happened, like due to dealing with councils, where that process can be quite lengthy.

[00:04:04] But I guess our experience has been that since the low rise diversity code came about, it does seem like it's a lot more of a streamlined process that you don't seem to have the delays that we've had in the past getting that subdivision.

[00:04:17] Have you found that?

[00:04:18] Yeah, most definitely.

[00:04:19] It's because, yeah, for the subdivision CDC, it really relies on the building CDC.

[00:04:27] Yeah.

[00:04:28] And once you get a building CDC, I think you're more than halfway there into getting your subdivision.

[00:04:35] And for us, it's just legislative checks.

[00:04:38] Obviously, we check zoning requirements, lot size widths.

[00:04:42] And yeah, after that, it's pretty straightforward.

[00:04:46] Yeah.

[00:04:46] Yeah.

[00:04:46] And I think, look, one common thing I hear, a lot of people just get confused on the timing of different things.

[00:04:54] Because quite often, obviously, the beauty of a duplex and being able to subdivide on a duplex often in most councils in New South Wales, you can essentially, you know, develop a duplex, for example, or a dual occupancy on a block that often you can't subdivide it beforehand.

[00:05:12] And let's use, you know, let's use Wollong, for example.

[00:05:16] Like in Wollongong, the minimum lot size for a block in R2 zoning is 450.

[00:05:20] But under the LEP, you can do a dual occupancy on a 450 block and then you can subdivide it after construction.

[00:05:29] Yes.

[00:05:30] I guess a lot of people get mixed up in that.

[00:05:34] Yeah, that's exactly right.

[00:05:36] So, you know, subdivision CDC needs a building CDC.

[00:05:40] And then once it's built, we can subdivide.

[00:05:43] And the controls are a lot different.

[00:05:44] So a lot of people get tied up with the minimum lot size that a council has in their LEP.

[00:05:50] Yeah.

[00:05:50] Well, for subdivision CDCs, we rely on what the SEP says, the SEP Exempts Criminal Compliance Development Code.

[00:06:00] So for that one, it goes back to what the council LEP says for the minimum lot size for a dual occupancy.

[00:06:09] Yes.

[00:06:09] And if a council LEP doesn't specify the minimum lot size for a dual occupancy, then it relies on the SEP minimum lot size, which is 200 square metres.

[00:06:21] Per side.

[00:06:22] Yeah, for Torrance Title.

[00:06:24] Yes.

[00:06:24] And then 180 for Strata.

[00:06:26] Yeah.

[00:06:26] Yeah.

[00:06:26] And that's interesting, isn't it?

[00:06:28] Because I think it's a very important thing even for planners or architects or really anyone in the industry.

[00:06:35] But I think it's important for the investor or the developer to really have their head around that, especially when they're identifying potential sites to be able to do a dual occupancy on or even a terrace on as well.

[00:06:49] Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:50] Exactly.

[00:06:50] It's a huge difference because some minimum lot size, like you said, are 450 and then it ends up they can do a dual lock and subdivide with 200 square metre lots.

[00:06:59] Yeah.

[00:07:00] Yeah.

[00:07:01] And look, I guess one common thing I find people are never fully sure when to actually begin the process of engaging a subdivision certifier.

[00:07:13] Because obviously a lot of people know the process when it comes to the build side of a dual occupancy.

[00:07:19] Yeah.

[00:07:20] But a lot of people get confused as to when is the right time to engage someone for the subdivision side of the certification.

[00:07:29] Like have you got any thoughts around when is a good time to actually – because some people obviously want to try and sell, begin to sell their – they might want to sell one of the products.

[00:07:39] Yeah.

[00:07:40] Or they might want to sell them both.

[00:07:41] Yeah.

[00:07:42] Or rent one out and sell one.

[00:07:44] So obviously timing can be an important factor.

[00:07:48] Obviously you can't finalise the subdivision until you've got the OC.

[00:07:51] That's correct.

[00:07:51] Yeah.

[00:07:52] But do you want to just give us a bit of insight and wisdom into when is a good time to begin that process?

[00:07:58] Yeah.

[00:07:58] I think it's as early as you can.

[00:08:01] Just contact a registered subdivision certifier and even ask if it is permissible.

[00:08:06] There are certain ADPs which have – which will permit, especially in Parramatta, they have a prohibitation map.

[00:08:13] And so they can permit a dual occupancy but they prohibit subdivision.

[00:08:17] Yes.

[00:08:19] So it's good to get engaged early on.

[00:08:22] Just ask a few questions, put a few of those out.

[00:08:24] We're always happy to answer questions.

[00:08:26] Is it currently permissible with the zoning, with the lot size?

[00:08:30] And yeah, we get a lot of enquiries and we send them out.

[00:08:35] But when you're getting engaged with a subdivision certifier, I would say when you're close to getting your building CDC approved,

[00:08:44] to definitely engage the subdivision certifier then and get the ball rolling on the approval process for the subdivision CDC.

[00:08:52] Because the subdivision CDC, it protects you.

[00:08:55] It protects you.

[00:08:56] It's a planning approval in the last five years and it protects you from any LEP changes, changes to the zoning.

[00:09:03] So we had one where the dual occupancy was permitted in R3 and they finished the build of the dual lock

[00:09:09] and then they come to do the subdivision.

[00:09:11] No longer is it permissible in R3.

[00:09:14] Yeah.

[00:09:14] Yeah.

[00:09:14] So it really protects you for the five years, LEP, lot size changes, anything like that you protected.

[00:09:24] Yeah.

[00:09:25] And also it streams on the process when you come into your subdivision certificate.

[00:09:31] So one of the requirements is a Section 73 from Sydney Water for subdivision.

[00:09:36] Yes.

[00:09:36] So there's two.

[00:09:37] There's one for the building and one for the subdivision.

[00:09:40] Yeah.

[00:09:40] And a lot of people get caught out.

[00:09:42] And so the Section 73 for the subdivision needs a subdivision approval.

[00:09:47] Yes.

[00:09:47] And to get that is the CDC.

[00:09:49] Yeah.

[00:09:50] So if you get that early on, you can start getting the documentation ready.

[00:09:54] Yeah.

[00:09:54] And sending it through when you're at your subdivision certificate stage.

[00:09:57] And then it just makes it a lot cleaner and faster.

[00:10:01] Yes.

[00:10:02] Yeah.

[00:10:02] Because we have guys that come, they're almost OC and they want to get their subdivision.

[00:10:07] And then they got to go through the hoop.

[00:10:08] First, you need a planning approval, the subdivision CDC.

[00:10:12] And then we can look at assessing the subdivision certificate.

[00:10:15] And then they'll get the OC.

[00:10:17] Then they're going back to Sydney Water.

[00:10:19] Yeah.

[00:10:19] It just delays it.

[00:10:20] So just…

[00:10:21] And the problem is you're dealing with a stressed client then, aren't you?

[00:10:24] Exactly.

[00:10:25] Exactly.

[00:10:25] And then we try and help as much as we can.

[00:10:28] And yeah, it's just…get it as early as you can.

[00:10:31] It's not a last…

[00:10:32] Yeah.

[00:10:33] It's not a last step.

[00:10:34] And it's not something that a building certified can do also.

[00:10:37] Because they'll say, oh, it's part of the building CDC, which is subdivisions and not.

[00:10:42] Yes.

[00:10:42] It's not part of the CDC.

[00:10:43] Yeah.

[00:10:43] Yeah.

[00:10:43] So essentially…

[00:10:45] Essentially.

[00:10:46] And this is…

[00:10:46] I think this is a really great point that you brought up because I think there's a lot

[00:10:51] of people out there that think that you need to either be…get OC or be close to OC

[00:10:58] and then you start the process of the subdivision certification.

[00:11:01] But as you've just mentioned, you can be preparing a lot of the moving pieces of that subdivision

[00:11:08] even as soon as you've got your building.

[00:11:11] Yeah.

[00:11:12] Or even before you've got your actual building subdivision approval.

[00:11:17] But I guess it's probably best to get the building subdivision approval first, do you think?

[00:11:21] To get the building CDC approved?

[00:11:23] Yeah.

[00:11:24] When you're close…

[00:11:25] Sorry, building CDC.

[00:11:25] Yeah.

[00:11:26] If you're getting close, you can start the subdivision CDC process.

[00:11:30] You can engage the subdivision certifier.

[00:11:33] You can start sending some documents.

[00:11:35] We always require a recent 10.7.

[00:11:39] Yeah.

[00:11:39] It's quite important for us.

[00:11:41] Three months…a lot of them say three months old, is it?

[00:11:43] Three months.

[00:11:44] Yeah.

[00:11:45] Three months is the industry standard.

[00:11:47] Yes.

[00:11:47] We get guys sending like two and a half year old 10.7s and we can't…

[00:11:51] It doesn't cut it.

[00:11:51] …when we request it, they're stressed.

[00:11:53] They're like, why do you need it?

[00:11:54] Yeah.

[00:11:55] But it's an important document that we rely on to see if there are any issues in issuing our subdivision CDC, any planning requirements.

[00:12:06] Yeah.

[00:12:06] And one of the challenges can be, I think, it's probably going back a few steps, but I think it's great to talk about this.

[00:12:15] This is a lot of people are obviously looking for sites that they can develop, that they can do a dual occupancy on as a project.

[00:12:22] It can be tricky for people to get the right due diligence and to make sure they're not buying a headache.

[00:12:30] Yeah.

[00:12:32] So…

[00:12:34] …like subdivision certifiers offer or people in this industry offer to help someone just navigate and answer some questions or to…

[00:12:40] Yeah.

[00:12:41] …just to do some cross-checks.

[00:12:43] Like if they've got a…

[00:12:43] …for example, a current contract of sale for that property…

[00:12:47] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:48] …is that a service that's out there and that's available to be able to check and say, yes, this can be subdivided by the low right, like the CDC pathway or…

[00:12:57] …yeah, so on our website we have a dual occupancy summary sheet guideline and it basically goes through the most popular LGAs within New South Wales…

[00:13:07] …yeah…

[00:13:07] …and the minimum lot size requirements for the dual occupancy and the resultant lot size for subdivision.

[00:13:13] Yeah.

[00:13:13] We're always available if people want to call, we get a lot of due diligence, usually on a Friday afternoon…

[00:13:20] …if they're going to an auction on the Saturday, can they subdivide?

[00:13:24] Yeah.

[00:13:24] If you could…yeah, we always respond to emails.

[00:13:28] Yes.

[00:13:28] You can send an email through with the address and we can do a preliminary and we're happy to provide that as a free service…

[00:13:37] Yeah.

[00:13:38] …to anyone who's looking for their due diligence for a site.

[00:13:41] Yeah.

[00:13:42] Yeah.

[00:13:42] No, that's really good.

[00:13:43] I think that's a key one, isn't it?

[00:13:45] Because I'm sure you've seen it, we've definitely seen it, where someone will buy a piece of land…

[00:13:52] …and unfortunately, yes, you can build a dual occupancy on it…

[00:13:56] Yeah.

[00:13:57] …but you can't subdivide it.

[00:13:58] Yeah.

[00:13:59] You can't…a lot of times it's the Torrance title and then they'll eventually…

[00:14:04] …in some cases they'll go Strata.

[00:14:06] Yeah.

[00:14:07] Yeah.

[00:14:07] …to Strata subdivide it under the low rise.

[00:14:10] Yeah.

[00:14:10] Yeah.

[00:14:11] But some people don't like Strata.

[00:14:15] Yeah, yeah.

[00:14:16] Well, I think I want to talk about that shortly because I think it'd be good to just talk about the differences between the two.

[00:14:22] But look, are you…are there any particular common challenges that you pick up?

[00:14:28] I guess the whole point of this episode is very much to educate our clients who are doing these type of projects to get better at understanding the process of subdivision.

[00:14:36] Like, are there any common, I guess, challenges or common mistakes that you see that get made during this process?

[00:14:45] Obviously, we just touched on people leaving it too late…

[00:14:49] Yeah.

[00:14:49] …and then being quite stressed out.

[00:14:51] Yeah.

[00:14:53] So a lot of challenges.

[00:14:55] I think for the subdivision CDC, the approval process, the main challenges is getting your head around the lot size and the permissibility for that.

[00:15:05] And then when it comes to the actual subdivision certificate stage after that, there is a bit of challenge with OSD tanks.

[00:15:16] Yeah.

[00:15:16] So, yeah.

[00:15:17] And the positive covenant and the restriction that should be signed by council.

[00:15:23] Technically, technically, under the legislation, it's a prior to occupation certificate requirement.

[00:15:28] But we always request it when we're assessing the subdivision.

[00:15:34] And there's more times than there are.

[00:15:38] There's no positive covenant registered for the OSD tank.

[00:15:41] So one of the challenges is probably if you've got an OSD tank, if you've got absorption trench or a pump out and the council requires a positive covenant and restriction in their stormwater policy or DCP, it should get it on a positive covenant restriction signed.

[00:16:02] Preferably prior to OC.

[00:16:03] Yep.

[00:16:04] But definitely before subdivision, we always check.

[00:16:08] And councils take time with that.

[00:16:11] Yeah.

[00:16:11] Not sure why.

[00:16:11] It's really just the wording check.

[00:16:13] Yes.

[00:16:14] They should just be checking that the wording is in accordance with their terms.

[00:16:18] Yep.

[00:16:19] And it should be signed.

[00:16:21] But a lot of councils will make people do applications.

[00:16:24] They'll come out and do inspections on OSD tanks, which I'm not sure under what legislation or legal they have the right to do that because they really bypass that in that whole approval process.

[00:16:36] Yeah.

[00:16:36] The approval falls back on the building certifier and the certification.

[00:16:41] I guess the stormwater engineer would be.

[00:16:43] Who signs off on a compliance certificate for that that the building certifier relies on.

[00:16:48] Yes.

[00:16:48] So I'm not sure, but they really get heavily involved and it causes huge delays for everyone.

[00:16:54] And when we pick it up at subdivision stage, it's a prior to OC requirement and we get people jumping up and down.

[00:17:02] But, you know, it's in everyone's best interest to go what's according to the legislation and do the right thing.

[00:17:09] Yeah.

[00:17:10] Yep.

[00:17:10] So I guess for a listener out there that they have to do like an OSD system or an absorption system if that particular council allows that.

[00:17:20] So to get that positive covenant, can you just walk us through just some of the steps?

[00:17:25] Yeah.

[00:17:25] Like what's involved in them getting that?

[00:17:28] Just so that they can, I guess for someone out there that is doing this, has to do this, might be a backwards sloping block and that council doesn't, you don't have to get the easement to get the stormwater out of the site.

[00:17:40] Like what's involved in that positive covenant?

[00:17:42] Yeah.

[00:17:43] So the positive covenant is usually drafted by your surveyor and it will accompany, with the DA, it will usually accompany the subdivision plans.

[00:17:53] But for CDCs, because it's really prior to OC, the surveyor will register that with the land titles through ADAE.

[00:18:04] So councils will have a standard wording for OSD tanks, for absorption trenches.

[00:18:10] And that wording just pretty much gets copied across on a document, on an ADAE document.

[00:18:16] And they take that to council and council should just check the wording and sign that off.

[00:18:23] And it just really goes, the positive kind of restriction is just saying, look, there's something underground here.

[00:18:28] It's an OSD tank or if it's built into the rainwater tank, usually you can't build over it.

[00:18:35] It's meant to be free drain.

[00:18:36] You don't, not meant to obstruct the drainage of it.

[00:18:39] Yeah.

[00:18:39] Um, you meant to maintain it.

[00:18:42] Um, the positive covenant talks about maintenance of the system, make sure it's functional and that puts it back on the owner.

[00:18:48] Yeah.

[00:18:49] Um, whether they get maintained or not, and it gives council the right to come in and inspect it.

[00:18:55] And then if, if it's dirty, they clean it out and they'll charge you for that service.

[00:19:00] So that's basically what the positive covenant is.

[00:19:02] And as good as it gets registered on title.

[00:19:05] So if somebody is going to buy that, they know that there's an OSD tank under the driveway.

[00:19:11] Cause a lot of times they don't know or above ground ones.

[00:19:13] They're built in with retaining walls and people think their garden, their front gardens.

[00:19:19] And when it rains, it fills with water and they see a metal plate with a small hole.

[00:19:24] And they're like, Oh, if I just rip this plate off, the water goes, it doesn't get withheld.

[00:19:28] But that's the actual purpose of the OSD onsite detention tank.

[00:19:33] That's for, you know, that's great advice.

[00:19:35] That's really good.

[00:19:36] And look, another big question I find a lot of investors, developers, um, mum and dad investors, um, are often talking about is the difference between Torrance title and Strata title.

[00:19:51] Yeah.

[00:19:52] Um, obviously each of them have benefits from a resale point of view.

[00:19:56] And, and, but I think some of it's, there's different mentalities around.

[00:20:01] And I think some of the mentalities have changed a little bit now, like Strata.

[00:20:05] I find a lot of the older generation when they think of Strata title, they think the old school block of units where you've got like, you know,

[00:20:12] Yeah.

[00:20:12] Two units on the bottom, two on the top or, or, but it's, it's more than that now.

[00:20:17] Cause we're seeing a lot more, even sometimes duplexes Strata titled and sometimes there can be cost saving benefits as well in, in, uh, from a construction point of view in doing the Strata too.

[00:20:30] So it's not like it used to be where, you know, um, that, that mentality around Strata and Torrance, like do you, what are some of the, what are some of the differences?

[00:20:41] Like, like if we talk about Strata versus Torrance?

[00:20:44] Yeah.

[00:20:45] So that's exactly right.

[00:20:46] So when you Torrance title, you're dividing the actual block of land into smaller pieces of land, smaller lots and anything on those lots, like a house is owned or somebody can own that.

[00:20:59] And it's theirs and they can, as much as the legal, like legally can, they can do whatever they want on that lot.

[00:21:08] And then Strata, the Strata titling, you're really subdividing buildings and structures over one piece of land, one lot, um, in a three dimensional space.

[00:21:20] So if you think high rise, you can, it's the floor walls and ceiling of apartment blocks going up or, and then duplex, it'll be the duplex building and it's associated structures.

[00:21:31] Um, and usually there's common property.

[00:21:34] Um, in, in terms of duplexes, we see a lot of duplexes going Strata, some without any common property.

[00:21:41] Um, I think there's advantages with Strata in regards to the cost savings and you're not pulling new servicing to new lots for every, um, service that's available in the street, water, electricity.

[00:21:54] Um, so essentially, so I think duplexes are important because a lot of our, a lot of, uh, listeners and people are starting, especially with the smaller projects.

[00:22:04] Like a duplex.

[00:22:04] So, so when you say, so that they're not having to put in separate sewer, separate water.

[00:22:10] Yeah.

[00:22:10] Separate new lines.

[00:22:11] That's right.

[00:22:12] You created, I'm not sure in regards to like the metering, how that works, um, in regards, but yeah, you don't have to draw and then it gets registered as a, as a new lot.

[00:22:23] Yeah.

[00:22:23] Um, for those services.

[00:22:24] So there's, there's cost savings there.

[00:22:26] Um, I guess probably there is also advantages, um, like some councils won't allow Torrance title for dual occupancies, but nine times out of 10 Strata will go through permissible.

[00:22:41] Yes.

[00:22:41] And, uh, usually the, the lot size will be smaller than what, uh, Torrance title requirement is under the SEP as well.

[00:22:50] Um, I think the main disadvantage is that the, the perception there is an owner's corp that gets registered with the Strata.

[00:22:59] Um, there has to be a annual meeting usually every year.

[00:23:04] Yep.

[00:23:04] Um, there are bylaws that get registered with the Strata, which it's important to read through them because they could include things regarding pets and smoking.

[00:23:16] Yes.

[00:23:16] Um, so there is some things, but I guess at the end of the day, it's, it's a new, it's its own lot and you can own that lot.

[00:23:27] Yeah.

[00:23:27] Individually.

[00:23:28] And, and as long as you understand what the bylaws are, that's registered with the Strata, there, there shouldn't be too many issues.

[00:23:35] I guess it begs the question as well in regards to, um, councils that do only permit Strata in terms of, um, in terms of like the amount of occupancies.

[00:23:48] So it's the same.

[00:23:49] So dual occupancy, you're going to have, if it's Torrance total with Strata, I don't really see the difference.

[00:23:56] Yeah.

[00:23:56] It's the same amount of, the buildings is the same.

[00:23:59] The amount of occupants will be the same.

[00:24:01] So, um, yeah, I'm baffled as why, as to why they, councils won't permit, uh, a Torrance over Strata.

[00:24:10] These products will be here for, for decades.

[00:24:13] They're not going to go anywhere.

[00:24:14] So you can always do a lot consolidation later on.

[00:24:18] Yeah.

[00:24:19] Yeah.

[00:24:19] It's just, uh, it's just one of those things that feels like it's.

[00:24:22] Yeah.

[00:24:23] Yeah.

[00:24:23] And look, obviously you can, you can see what townhouse developments or certain terrorists,

[00:24:29] obviously you can Torrance terraces as well, if they meet that, that size.

[00:24:33] But, um, a lot, a lot of people have always just basically said duplexes, Torrance titles at the moment that you have to go Strata.

[00:24:43] Some people do freak out, but I guess it's deep.

[00:24:46] But it's debunking that myth that you can still sell each title.

[00:24:51] Like you can still sell them separately.

[00:24:53] You can, you might want to live in one and sell one.

[00:24:56] Yeah.

[00:24:56] Or you might want to rent one out and then rent them both out.

[00:24:59] And in 12 months time, you might want to sell one.

[00:25:01] You still got the ability to sell, don't you?

[00:25:04] Like you would a Torrance title.

[00:25:05] Exactly.

[00:25:06] Exactly.

[00:25:06] It's, it's, it's its own Strata title over that building and they can individually be, be sold.

[00:25:11] Yeah.

[00:25:12] There's no, they're not tied together.

[00:25:14] If there was a dual occupancy with no Torrance or Strata, then it's really locked into that.

[00:25:20] The one building, it's technically one building on one lot.

[00:25:23] Yeah.

[00:25:24] And essentially if it is a duplex, like a side by side duplex, essentially like you don't really, a lot of the duplexes, you don't even really have any shared, shared spaces.

[00:25:37] Like often they'll still have their own driveways or they'll have a, if it's a driveway down the middle, they might have a, like a shared driveway crossover at the front maybe.

[00:25:45] But essentially there's nothing, it's not like, it's not like their Strata fees, like in a unit development where you're chipping in all this money for certain, you know, certain elements, is it?

[00:25:55] Yeah, that's right.

[00:25:56] There's, for a duplex under Strata, if any, there's not much common property.

[00:26:01] And so, yeah, the fees associated with the Strata later on should be really quite low.

[00:26:07] Yeah.

[00:26:08] Compared to a townhouse or duplex.

[00:26:11] Yeah.

[00:26:11] Or townhouse or unit development.

[00:26:13] Yeah.

[00:26:13] And in terms of the Strata, like do you have, do you still have to have someone like a Strata company involved?

[00:26:19] Yeah.

[00:26:20] To do the actual?

[00:26:20] Because I think the, well, I think the owners can do it.

[00:26:24] Yeah.

[00:26:24] I don't, as the body corpora, I'm not sure if you need to legally have a company involved.

[00:26:31] Yeah.

[00:26:31] But there are certain laws like you need an AGM every year.

[00:26:35] Yeah.

[00:26:36] And I've even heard some investors joke that literally all it is is like a coffee over the fence.

[00:26:43] Yeah.

[00:26:44] Exactly.

[00:26:44] Having a coffee each over the fence and basically the once a year.

[00:26:47] Just.

[00:26:48] Agreement.

[00:26:49] Yeah.

[00:26:49] Sign it off.

[00:26:50] Sign it off and then you're done.

[00:26:51] Yeah.

[00:26:52] Yeah.

[00:26:52] Between two parties.

[00:26:53] A lot of people get that fear and that perception that it's got to be this, you know, this formal meeting where you're sitting at a boardroom, you've got a solicitor there and you've got all these bits and pieces.

[00:27:02] But it's sort of debunking some of those myths, isn't it?

[00:27:06] Yeah.

[00:27:07] That's right.

[00:27:08] It's, yeah.

[00:27:09] I don't think there's any formalities to it.

[00:27:11] Yeah.

[00:27:12] I don't think you need to have legal representation or anything.

[00:27:14] It's just, yeah.

[00:27:15] Yeah.

[00:27:16] Coffee over the fence.

[00:27:18] It will suffice as long as you just go through whatever the requirements of that meeting is.

[00:27:23] Yeah.

[00:27:23] And just tick those and go through them, then, yeah, there's no issues.

[00:27:28] Yeah.

[00:27:28] Pretty quick.

[00:27:29] Yeah.

[00:27:29] Yeah.

[00:27:30] And in terms of the approval process, Strata versus Torrens, is there a bit more, is there any difference in from a planning perspective, like from your side of the fence in terms of approving that subdivision, registering it, going through that whole process?

[00:27:45] Is there anything, is it any different, the process, or is it quite similar?

[00:27:49] Like, for the low rise, for duplexes, it's pretty much the same.

[00:27:56] They're pretty much the same standard for Torrens, Tuttle, and Strata.

[00:28:00] I think where it gets different is where it's a DA and what you're showing is CDC for the Strata.

[00:28:06] And then the Strata certificate, it falls under, for the low rise, it's kind of under the SEP.

[00:28:13] And then, yeah, when it comes to a DA, it falls under the Strata Development Act.

[00:28:19] And then, so, it's a bit less requirements.

[00:28:22] Yeah.

[00:28:22] And it's a little bit easier than the low rise, as long as you have, yeah, your Strata plan and that.

[00:28:30] Just in terms of utilities, I think the real main requirement is just the Section 73.

[00:28:36] Yeah.

[00:28:37] Yeah.

[00:28:37] Well, under the low rise for duplex, you need to provide for all the services.

[00:28:42] Yes.

[00:28:42] Yeah.

[00:28:43] That's it.

[00:28:44] That's great.

[00:28:44] And look, I think another important thing I'd love to just chat with you about, get some insight on is just walking through the timeline of a subdivision.

[00:28:55] And just, especially for people out there that are looking into this, because I think one of the challenges can be is that often a client, sometimes I've found, is left with having to organise this themselves.

[00:29:09] Because, one, their town planner or their architect or some designer who they've engaged at the start may no longer be involved in the process because it's been handed over to a builder.

[00:29:20] Yeah.

[00:29:21] And two, a lot of building companies don't, either don't like dealing with the subdivision side of it or aren't equipped to do it.

[00:29:29] They don't know the process, so they just try and push it off to the client.

[00:29:33] So I think it's important for people to know who are doing these sort of projects and wanting to do these sort of projects.

[00:29:39] Just the process, just so they feel confident.

[00:29:42] It's like anything when you're either doing something for the first time or you're not confident in the process of the steps to take.

[00:29:49] Like, I think it's the more we can educate people on the importance of doing, of the steps involved.

[00:29:55] I guess it makes everyone's life a lot smoother from a builder to a planner to an architect to the subdivision certifier and obviously for the client to get a great outcome.

[00:30:06] Yeah.

[00:30:07] Can you just walk us through that process, I guess, from start to finish?

[00:30:09] Obviously, it's hard to talk costs because every surveyor charges a different amount.

[00:30:14] So we won't really go into costs.

[00:30:16] Maybe at some point I might do an episode where I can break down some average costs.

[00:30:20] But I think for this episode's sake, if we can just talk about the steps and even just some timelines of like how long things take, for example, like how long does it take with LRS?

[00:30:32] You know, how long does it take for certain elements?

[00:30:35] Like I'm assuming it's got to go to the bank for a little bit too.

[00:30:38] Yeah.

[00:30:38] So if you can just walk us through from sort of the very first stage, you know, where they'll come to the subdivision certifier and get them engaged.

[00:30:48] Yeah.

[00:30:48] So from the beginning, when you get the subdivision certifier engaged, you usually get a list for the CDC.

[00:30:56] So just remember that the subdivision, it's a two-step process.

[00:30:59] You need a subdivision CDC, which is the planning approval.

[00:31:03] And then after that is the subdivision or strata certificate, whichever way you're going.

[00:31:09] So when you come, you'll get a list of requirements for the subdivision CDC.

[00:31:14] Now, because it relies on a building CDC, once you've got that, most of the hard work is done.

[00:31:21] You'll need like a subdivision plan from a registered surveyor, 10.7, like a few documents, owner's consent, a New South Wales planning portal application.

[00:31:33] That's probably one that is time and time again, it stumps a lot of people.

[00:31:38] It's the New South Wales government, every application needs a portal lodgment, a portal application through the portal.

[00:31:45] So for a subdivision CDC, holistically, there'll be two portal applications.

[00:31:50] Yes.

[00:31:50] There'll be the subdivision CDC portal application and then there'll be the subdivision certificate portal application.

[00:31:56] Yes.

[00:31:56] And the New South Wales planning portal is not fun for anyone.

[00:32:01] It's not fun for anyone.

[00:32:03] They've recently done some changes, especially for subdivision.

[00:32:06] So hopefully there's a bit of improvement there because a lot of it was all asking for building documents, which aren't related to the subdivision.

[00:32:14] Yeah.

[00:32:15] But I guess the main takeaway is getting the portal application to the certifier.

[00:32:21] Yes.

[00:32:21] So getting through those steps and just getting it to the certifier is a huge win.

[00:32:28] And I think it's really important just getting it to them.

[00:32:32] And then once it's there, the certifier can, once the approvals are there, they'll upload the appropriate documentation on our end.

[00:32:41] And just jumping onto that before you go into the next stage, that's one thing I find a lot of people struggle with is dealing with the planning portal.

[00:32:49] And look, I know a lot of investors and developers out there, like a lot of them are time poor.

[00:32:55] So the best thing to do, I find, is to ideally engage like an architect or designer or a town planner or all your builder if they're equipped or have admin staff that are equipped to do it,

[00:33:06] who are using the planning portal day in, day out.

[00:33:09] Don't you think?

[00:33:10] Like it just saves headaches.

[00:33:11] It does.

[00:33:12] Because it can be a nightmare using the planning portal if you're not experienced, if you're not doing it regularly.

[00:33:17] Yeah, that's right.

[00:33:18] If you're not using it regularly, especially for mums and dads who are doing a one-off, it can be a real breaker.

[00:33:25] Yeah, it puts a lot of pressure on people.

[00:33:27] Yeah.

[00:33:29] As a certifier, we really can't get involved with that process.

[00:33:32] Yeah.

[00:33:33] So we try.

[00:33:34] Yeah, you can't do it for them.

[00:33:35] No.

[00:33:36] And we try to give them guides.

[00:33:38] And sometimes they get upset at our guides.

[00:33:41] And really it's a New South Wales planning portal.

[00:33:45] We have no, like, they can change it.

[00:33:47] They've changed the processes.

[00:33:48] And we really can't be updating and having a guide all the time for something we're really not involved with, unfortunately.

[00:33:56] Yeah.

[00:33:56] But, yeah, the planning portal is a huge hurdle.

[00:34:00] So hopefully it's getting a bit easier for everyone.

[00:34:03] But definitely if you can project manage that through somebody, if you're an owner doing it yourself, it's definitely…

[00:34:11] Ask for help.

[00:34:12] Yeah.

[00:34:12] Or if you have the time to go through it.

[00:34:15] You can do it anytime, 24-7.

[00:34:16] So if you've got some time at night just to go through it.

[00:34:19] But, yeah, just getting the right application.

[00:34:21] So CDC for subdivision is a CDC application.

[00:34:25] Yeah.

[00:34:25] And then for the subdivision certificate, it will be a post-consent certificate through the dropdown in the planning portal.

[00:34:33] Yeah.

[00:34:33] And then, yeah, just getting it to certify, answering just the mandatory questions.

[00:34:38] Yeah.

[00:34:39] And then, yeah, get it to certify.

[00:34:41] That's the main goal of the planning portal if you're trying to do it.

[00:34:45] Yep.

[00:34:46] All right.

[00:34:47] So there's that stage.

[00:34:49] So what's the next step in the process?

[00:34:51] Yeah.

[00:34:51] So once you get that, you will get your subdivision CDC, the certificate and the stamp plan.

[00:34:58] Yep.

[00:34:58] And we will send with that documentation of a list of all the requirements for the next stage, which is the subdivision certificate.

[00:35:07] So when you're coming to subdivision certificate stage, it will usually be final subdivision plans, admin sheets.

[00:35:15] 88B if there's going to be creation of any right of carriageway or drainage easements.

[00:35:22] It will be the utilities.

[00:35:25] So NBN, you need to show, usually it's a provisioning letter from NBN Co.

[00:35:31] Or bills.

[00:35:33] Sorry.

[00:35:34] Same with gas.

[00:35:36] Usually an email.

[00:35:37] Gemini usually email.

[00:35:38] So we just need to ensure the provisions for all the utilities, Section 73 from Sydney Water, ensuring that it's subdivision.

[00:35:46] Because if you look at the Section 73 compliance certificate, when it's done for a building, there's eight points within that certificate on the front page.

[00:35:57] And usually the last point, 0.8, will refer to subdivision.

[00:36:02] And if it's not crossed out and a subdivision CDC is referenced, then we really can't use that, unfortunately.

[00:36:11] So usually they'll have to do two Section 73s.

[00:36:15] And then we'll require usually an NOA from New South Wales electricity distributor.

[00:36:22] There's been a lot of backlash, I guess.

[00:36:26] I don't know what's going on in the last six, eight months with NOAs, with Ausgrid Endeavour Energy.

[00:36:35] They're saying it's not a DA consent.

[00:36:38] CDC is creating a bit of an issue.

[00:36:40] Yep.

[00:36:42] For – we need an occupation certificate as well.

[00:36:46] Yes.

[00:36:46] Which is for the subdivision certificate.

[00:36:49] And the building certifier has to power both lots to issue an occupation.

[00:36:57] And some offices within these New South Wales – within the electrical distributors, they're not providing – they're not recognising a subdivision CDC, I guess.

[00:37:10] Yes.

[00:37:10] And they can't get power to the both lots.

[00:37:13] They're not issuing an NOA.

[00:37:14] They're saying it's not a DA consent, even though it's a planning approval.

[00:37:18] Subdivision CDC is a planning approval.

[00:37:20] Yep.

[00:37:21] Yeah.

[00:37:22] And there's just – it's creating a bit of an issue.

[00:37:23] And sometimes they can't get it, so we're accepting permission to connects or a connection offer from Ausgrid.

[00:37:32] But sometimes you have applications where they come through with an NOA from Ausgrid and Endeavour.

[00:37:38] It's quite confusing.

[00:37:39] And it's creating a bit of tension as well with – when applicants are trying to do their subdivision and then they're building certifiers saying they can't issue an OC.

[00:37:50] The electrical is saying they need a subdivision certificate.

[00:37:53] Yep.

[00:37:55] It's kind of – it's going around in circles, spinning as well.

[00:37:58] So hopefully there can be some sort of – yeah, that gets looked into and resolved.

[00:38:04] I think it's creating a bit of an issue.

[00:38:05] I'm not sure why it's been more recent than before.

[00:38:08] But yeah, that's something.

[00:38:10] So going back, I guess, to the list, the occupation certificate from the building certifier.

[00:38:15] Yep.

[00:38:15] And then –

[00:38:17] So all of that stuff you've just mentioned can be done prior to OC.

[00:38:21] So now – but obviously you can't move – go into the next stage now until you've got OC, buildings finished, you've got the OC from the building certifier.

[00:38:31] Yep.

[00:38:32] And then –

[00:38:32] Yeah, so once you get the OC, it's pretty much the last piece.

[00:38:35] Yep.

[00:38:37] And then you'll submit all that to the subdivision certifier.

[00:38:43] And yeah, I think they'll review the documents, make sure it's satisfactory and then sign it and give your – they'll sign the administration sheet.

[00:38:54] Yep.

[00:38:54] So that needs to be signed by the surveyor.

[00:38:56] Yes.

[00:38:56] Before it comes through.

[00:38:59] Sometimes – if it is mortgage, sometimes the banks will sign it before.

[00:39:03] Sometimes the banks won't.

[00:39:05] Yep.

[00:39:05] They'll wait for the registered certifier to sign off on the subdivision plan.

[00:39:09] So it just depends.

[00:39:10] And it can – and I believe it can take – if it does have to go to the banks, I've been told you might be able to correct me if I'm wrong.

[00:39:18] Normally you need to allow about two weeks with the banks.

[00:39:21] Would that be all right?

[00:39:21] Okay.

[00:39:22] Yeah.

[00:39:22] I think from what I've heard as well, we don't – it's only when we hear when they're usually complaining.

[00:39:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:39:28] But sometimes it can take a while.

[00:39:29] Sometimes they've come back because we've said like the registered – or the surveyor hasn't signed it and it comes back with the surveyor and the bank within a few days.

[00:39:40] Yeah.

[00:39:40] I think it just depends on the bank at the time that they're lodging it.

[00:39:46] So if you allow for the worst really, I guess, in terms of your timeframe, anything on top of that's a bonus.

[00:39:52] Yeah, for sure.

[00:39:53] I think that's a good timeframe to buffer in into that process.

[00:40:00] And then, yeah, once we've signed it, then it goes back to your surveyor.

[00:40:04] Yep.

[00:40:05] And then the surveyor, they have an LRS portal and they can lodge that to New South Wales LRS.

[00:40:10] Yep.

[00:40:10] So that gets done by the surveyor then?

[00:40:12] Yeah.

[00:40:12] They lodge that all to the LRS?

[00:40:14] Yep.

[00:40:15] Yep.

[00:40:15] And then with the LRS, this is because we're kind of detached after that process.

[00:40:20] Yes.

[00:40:20] So it really ends with us.

[00:40:22] But, yeah, we've heard three months or sometimes, yeah, to allow for the registration to come through.

[00:40:30] Sometimes there's a requisition.

[00:40:32] Yeah.

[00:40:33] You just need to make sure – the surveyor really needs to make sure as well that, you know, the council addressing,

[00:40:40] is correct what the council letter has specified on the administration sheet.

[00:40:44] Yeah.

[00:40:45] And, yeah.

[00:40:46] Yeah.

[00:40:47] That's – so that will be the whole process.

[00:40:49] For a subdivision certifier, our response times are quite quick.

[00:40:54] We're 24 to 48 hours.

[00:40:56] If you submit a document or you submit all the documents and we'll review and provide feedback

[00:41:01] or we'll sign the subdivision certificate or the CDC approval.

[00:41:06] Yep.

[00:41:07] Perfect.

[00:41:07] Yeah.

[00:41:08] Very good.

[00:41:08] Well, look, I think just to wrap it up, is there any final thoughts you want to share just around, I guess,

[00:41:16] the services you guys provide and how you can help someone wanting to do a project?

[00:41:21] Like is there some ways people can get in touch?

[00:41:23] Is there – you mentioned before that people can inquire, make inquiries just about the sites they're looking to do.

[00:41:30] Is there any final thoughts you can share?

[00:41:32] Yeah.

[00:41:33] So, look, if you're looking to do a site, subdivision certifies.

[00:41:36] We're located in Parramatta and we do all across New South Wales.

[00:41:41] Our email is on our website, the admin email.

[00:41:44] You can send any inquiries you got through to there regarding subdivision,

[00:41:49] especially because the last couple of days there was amendments to the housing code

[00:41:54] and the low-rise housing diversity code in terms of dual occupancies in R2 where the state government was initially looking to do a blanket.

[00:42:05] Dual occupancies are permissible in R2 with 450 square metre lots.

[00:42:10] What sort of trickled down was it got broken into stages.

[00:42:15] And so under the housing code, I think where councils didn't permit dual occupancies in R2,

[00:42:21] now it's permissible within a stage one through a development application

[00:42:26] and sort of CDC's status quo is how it is.

[00:42:31] And then when stage two comes next year –

[00:42:35] They're talking the 1st of July, aren't they, 2025?

[00:42:37] Yeah, they're talking 1st of July 2025.

[00:42:40] I'm guessing that stage one stuff gets incorporated into the low-rise housing diversity code.

[00:42:45] Yes.

[00:42:47] So, yeah, that was a bit of a letdown.

[00:42:49] I think everyone was quite excited to see what was coming through that.

[00:42:55] Yeah, because I think a lot of councils are struggling to cope with the amount of DAs they've currently got.

[00:43:00] I wonder – we're trying to speed up, supply more housing, but I just wonder if it's –

[00:43:05] Yeah.

[00:43:06] It looks like a lot of those are going to have to be DAs, obviously.

[00:43:09] So it's tricky.

[00:43:10] Yeah, that's right.

[00:43:11] That's right.

[00:43:12] And I think that 450 square metre, that standard blanket lot size not coming through is a bit of a letdown

[00:43:21] because the way it reads, they were giving this –

[00:43:24] they broke it into stages to allow councils to maybe update LEPs in regards to lot sizes.

[00:43:31] So I think it's going to still fall – from what I'm seeing, it feels like it's still going to fall back to councils LEP on specifying lot size.

[00:43:42] Yeah.

[00:43:43] And then it's just – there's no standard.

[00:43:46] Every council has a different requirement for Duloc and for subdivision.

[00:43:50] Yeah.

[00:43:50] And, yeah, it's a bit tricky.

[00:43:53] Yeah.

[00:43:53] I'll watch this space, I guess.

[00:43:55] Yeah.

[00:43:56] Yeah, it should be good.

[00:43:56] Hopefully it might change down the line.

[00:43:58] We'll see.

[00:43:59] Yeah.

[00:43:59] Yeah.

[00:44:00] Well, it's been good to have you on, Dean.

[00:44:01] It's been a pleasure.

[00:44:02] So much insightful information.

[00:44:04] And, look, for any developers and investors doing a project, whether it be a dual lock CDC, a duplex CDC, terraces,

[00:44:12] or anything subdivision-wise, we'll be putting the show notes for Dean and subdivision certifiers in all of our show notes.

[00:44:20] There'll be opportunity to connect with them.

[00:44:23] I encourage you to reach out.

[00:44:24] And, look, if you've enjoyed this episode, please share with your friends, share with other fellow investors and developers,

[00:44:30] and make sure you like and subscribe on our podcast channels.

[00:44:33] Thank you.