Multi-Dwelling Feasibility Insights with Maria Laverde from Duplex Building Design

[00:00:01] As investors and developers, we see the world differently. This podcast uncovers the untold truths of what it really takes to become a multi-million dollar residential developer. I'm Nathan Battishall, let's get to work.

[00:00:20] Welcome to the Residential Developer Podcast. I'm the host of the show. My name's Nathan Battishall and I'm really privileged again to have Maria Laverde, our lead designer at Duplex Building Design.

[00:00:30] Good morning.

[00:00:30] How are you?

[00:00:31] Good, thank you.

[00:00:31] Good to have you on.

[00:00:32] Thank you for inviting me again.

[00:00:34] All right. Well, look, I thought we'd talk all things multi-dwelling. We'll probably more so talking about feasibilities because I think that's a really important part and I know as someone who does my own developments but also deals with a lot of developers, like it's often you're getting people to want to identify how many townhouses can I fit? What size townhouses?

[00:00:58] And there's so many constraints?

[00:01:00] You have strengths and things to look at.

[00:01:01] You have to look at.

[00:01:03] Obviously, you can't just look at a big piece of land and go, I can fit five or I can fit six.

[00:01:08] But, you know, some developers and, you know, I'm probably talking to everyone on here.

[00:01:13] Some developers don't want to spend that little bit of money at that feasibility stage just to really get, you know, get down that yield.

[00:01:20] And so I thought this would be a good space just to educate investors and developers on the importance of actually knowing your feasibility because I'm sure you've seen it.

[00:01:32] I've definitely seen it where people have bought a site expecting six when it probably should have been five.

[00:01:39] They should have been conservative and all that sort of thing.

[00:01:42] So, look, I guess when you're doing feasibility sketches or when you're in that feasibility phase, what's your process?

[00:01:53] What's some of the things you're looking at to determine a yield, like a yield or the size of a dwelling?

[00:02:00] What are some constraints or what are some things that you're identifying?

[00:02:03] Well, feasibilities are a very important key element.

[00:02:09] But because it's so preliminary, many people assume that they are not as important.

[00:02:15] But it is extremely important because it's the actual analysis of this site in particular with what are the constraints and the regulations that affects that site.

[00:02:28] So I cannot say that because you saw a similar site in this place, then you will be able to have the same in here.

[00:02:38] So that is why the feasibility is very important.

[00:02:42] Depending on how experienced the developer is, sometimes they have quite a good eye for what they can fit.

[00:02:48] But there are a lot of restrictions such as car maneuvering, wall thicknesses.

[00:02:55] I have a lot of clients that come to me with this is the minimum and this is fitting, but they forget that those lines that they make at home, they are avoiding the thicknesses of the walls.

[00:03:07] And that adds up sometimes half a meter to the width of the development.

[00:03:12] So all of these things are extremely important to take them into consideration.

[00:03:16] So what we do, and we have that part as a preliminary assessment, is to actually be conservative in the sense of what are the minimum lot requirements?

[00:03:29] Because they differ from council to council.

[00:03:33] So that might be a big down if we are needing certain subdivision, for example.

[00:03:41] Some councils require bigger maneuvering for the cars, even much bigger than the Australian standards.

[00:03:50] That is also needed to be taken into consideration.

[00:03:53] Easements, train rails, all of these trees.

[00:03:59] They're a big one, aren't they?

[00:04:00] Trees, yeah.

[00:04:01] Power poles.

[00:04:03] Yeah.

[00:04:03] Electric, electric easements.

[00:04:05] Yes.

[00:04:06] So all of these things that are extremely important that sometimes we have had occasions where physically they fit 10,

[00:04:18] but we have had to have 8.

[00:04:21] Yes.

[00:04:21] Because of the tree that needs to be protected at the back.

[00:04:25] Yeah.

[00:04:26] Okay?

[00:04:26] So we need to be able to make those numbers work before we get too down in the track.

[00:04:32] Why?

[00:04:33] Because the investor needs to be sure that his numbers hit the minimum requirements.

[00:04:38] But also because if we don't assess that on time, it means sometimes at one time it needs to be assessed.

[00:04:47] So if we need to find out that at the long term, that means we spend much more time, less economical benefits and all of this.

[00:04:56] So definitely feasibility is a beautiful advantage.

[00:05:00] Yeah.

[00:05:00] And it must be taken into consideration and in a serious consideration.

[00:05:05] Yeah.

[00:05:06] I think as an investor and developer, you really want to have that confidence when you're going into purchase a site anyway,

[00:05:11] that the numbers stack up.

[00:05:14] So, for example, if there's a potential for six, but there's these couple of constraints, there's these particular trees,

[00:05:19] the arborist is not guaranteed that council's going to allow removal, well, you're better off base your number on five.

[00:05:26] But the problem is when a developer and investor has massaged their numbers to suit six,

[00:05:33] all of a sudden you've got a stressed out developer.

[00:05:36] But a stressed out developer then leads to a stressed out design company, stressed out team of consultants,

[00:05:41] and eventually a stressed out builder, and no one's happy.

[00:05:44] And it still doesn't meet the numbers.

[00:05:46] Yeah.

[00:05:47] So it is sad when you see people just trying to get the design through to at least meet numbers.

[00:05:58] Yeah.

[00:05:58] And don't lose.

[00:06:00] So we want everybody to be out of that phase.

[00:06:04] We want to get into the design with confidence.

[00:06:07] Say we are confident that we will be able to fit five, going to try for six.

[00:06:14] But if this doesn't happen, you are still in the plus.

[00:06:18] Yeah.

[00:06:18] So we advise developers, people that is getting into the investor world, literally the cost that a feasibility has.

[00:06:32] It's not even compared with the risks that you are taking.

[00:06:35] Yeah.

[00:06:36] So it is extremely minimal.

[00:06:40] And that will also give you the assurance of, hey, I am in the right track.

[00:06:45] Yeah.

[00:06:46] And in a lot of ways, it's probably the best money you'll ever spend to either avoid a mistake,

[00:06:52] avoid a terrible site.

[00:06:53] It's just you're going to lose like sometimes hundreds and thousands on.

[00:06:57] Or it's a perfect investment because all of a sudden you can confidently go into that development knowing your numbers, knowing your yields.

[00:07:07] Well, while doing feasibilities, we have found several times that we might have had these occasions where we have kept one of the existing dwelling.

[00:07:19] Yeah.

[00:07:20] Right.

[00:07:20] And it is because it took us the time to say, hey, wait a minute, we can do these small tricks, can relocate the parking.

[00:07:29] We can provide parking at the back.

[00:07:32] All of these extra things that if we don't do that, we might just have to say, OK, we need to demolish everything and do it from scratch.

[00:07:42] So, you know, that also stack up in numbers.

[00:07:46] That also is an advantage that can be identified at the feasibility stage.

[00:07:53] No, that's good.

[00:07:56] And I guess you've already shared a few of them, but what's a few common mistakes that you've found over the last five or six years?

[00:08:03] What are some common mistakes you've found that investors, like developers and investors make when it comes to assessing the potential of a site where they've brought a site to you to determine what can be done?

[00:08:17] What are some common mistakes where people have just gone ahead and bought it without getting feasibility?

[00:08:22] What are some common mistakes?

[00:08:23] I tell you the biggest and unfortunately the most common, like very common, and is that they don't go to a specialist.

[00:08:33] They don't go to a designer to tell you what it fits.

[00:08:38] They trust the real estate agent.

[00:08:40] Yeah.

[00:08:41] Nothing wrong with the real estate agent, right?

[00:08:44] But the real estate agent wants to sell the site.

[00:08:46] Yes.

[00:08:47] So the real estate tells you you can fit five.

[00:08:50] Yeah.

[00:08:50] You can fit six.

[00:08:51] But the real estate hasn't checked other constraints that might be affecting the site.

[00:08:57] Yeah.

[00:08:58] So when the developer buys the site and based it on the advice of what the real estate has given, but then suddenly we have one less, it is hard.

[00:09:10] And it is heartbreaking sometimes for people to find out that.

[00:09:14] So that is one.

[00:09:15] Very common.

[00:09:17] Very critical.

[00:09:18] And the other mistakes are also trying to compare exactly what other people has done in other areas.

[00:09:30] Yeah.

[00:09:31] Or I did this and what I want to do here.

[00:09:34] You can, you need to push, you're always pushing the limits, but you also need to know what is suitable.

[00:09:43] Yes.

[00:09:44] What is within what is allowed.

[00:09:47] Yeah.

[00:09:48] And which areas you can push boundaries.

[00:09:50] So, yeah, there is here and there mistakes that can be avoided.

[00:09:56] But I think the most common one is actually before purchasing, finding out what fits.

[00:10:02] Yeah.

[00:10:02] By a design.

[00:10:03] Yeah.

[00:10:04] I like that.

[00:10:05] And in terms of, look, what are some non-negotiables you find in designing townhouses, especially when you're doing multiple?

[00:10:13] What are some things you know just doesn't matter what council you're dealing with?

[00:10:17] What are some non-negotiables you found that you just have to make sure that you comply or get as close to compliance as possible?

[00:10:27] Are we talking like maneuvering, solar access?

[00:10:30] Both of them are very critical.

[00:10:33] FSR, quiet.

[00:10:34] The FSR, there are certain constraints that falls into the LEP.

[00:10:39] Yeah.

[00:10:39] Okay.

[00:10:39] So, those ones are non-negotiable.

[00:10:42] Yeah.

[00:10:42] Because it's not that they cannot be breached.

[00:10:45] It is just that for the type of developments that we deal with, which are medium residential, low residential, going to a change or a variation in LEP is a very lengthy and expensive process.

[00:10:59] Yeah.

[00:11:00] So, anything that is related to LEP, we don't touch.

[00:11:03] Yes.

[00:11:04] Height, we don't touch.

[00:11:06] Building heights, we don't touch those things.

[00:11:08] Okay.

[00:11:08] That is one.

[00:11:10] And the other ones that are not non-negotiable, but we need to try our best to prove council that we have tried is solar access in private open spaces, meaning al fresco and entertaining areas of the outdoor and the living areas.

[00:11:29] Yeah.

[00:11:29] So, we must provide solar access in winter.

[00:11:34] At least two hours.

[00:11:36] Some councils require three hours.

[00:11:38] Some people require three hours consecutive through the day.

[00:11:41] So, that is when we need to analyze.

[00:11:43] All right.

[00:11:44] Do we need to do reverse living?

[00:11:46] Do we need to move the living area at the first floor?

[00:11:50] Or can we do some tricks in the layout that actually allows us to receive that sun?

[00:11:56] Yeah.

[00:11:57] And the other one is the maneuvering while providing safety for the pedestrians when the driveway and the cars share the same access with the pedestrians.

[00:12:09] So, it is important to also be able to live in maximum three-point turns and all of this.

[00:12:16] So, we need to prove that to councils.

[00:12:18] Yeah.

[00:12:18] And sometimes that is hard.

[00:12:21] Yeah.

[00:12:21] Okay?

[00:12:22] The other thing that can be also sometimes we need to think a bit of is the security to be able to see outside who is ringing the bell.

[00:12:41] Yeah.

[00:12:41] Yeah.

[00:12:41] So, yeah.

[00:12:43] These sort of things are privacy.

[00:12:45] Privacy is also an important one which we deal most of the times within certain type of bedrooms like rampices, common areas, things that are in the first floor.

[00:12:57] So, we have bigger ceilings so we provide privacy to the people living in the development that we are creating but also to their neighbors.

[00:13:04] Yes.

[00:13:05] Yeah.

[00:13:05] Privacy is a good one.

[00:13:06] And I guess from a feasibility perspective and that's very much what we're sort of tapping into in this episode is a lot of investors and developers, they're not thinking often about some of these key things like maneuvering, privacy, even overshadowing.

[00:13:22] Like it's amazing that, yes, you might be able to fit five townhouses on that site but because of these couple of – even the orientation of a block and all that straight away can actually impact the yield.

[00:13:33] Like it might actually only be four for key reasons and that's all well and good if you want to fight council to get that fifth one.

[00:13:41] But when you're buying a site, this is my mindset and look, every developer is different in how they think, an investor, but my thoughts are you should be thinking conservatively because that's a bonus if you can get that fifth one.

[00:13:54] But sometimes what's happening is people are – they're buying it on the maybe the 50% chance, sometimes even less than 50% that it will get supported.

[00:14:05] But all of a sudden if it doesn't get supported, all of a sudden you've got a development that may not even be profitable and that's like – that can be real troublesome, can't it?

[00:14:15] Oh, yeah.

[00:14:17] Because people haven't thought about those things.

[00:14:19] Shadows.

[00:14:20] Shadows.

[00:14:21] But we need to think that shadows in the neighbors also.

[00:14:25] Many times we only think, yeah, we're going to get sun for us.

[00:14:28] But what happened to the neighbors?

[00:14:30] Are we allowing them to receive sun?

[00:14:32] So sometimes as a visibility and as analyzing the site that we're buying, we need to also find out what is the private open space of my neighbor?

[00:14:42] So if I am able to get light in my development and I'm going up, am I actually going to be able to at the same time give my neighbor the minimum required light, sun, direct sun access to their existing private open space?

[00:15:03] Because what happens if it is exactly where we are going to shadow the whole time?

[00:15:07] Yeah.

[00:15:08] So it is a lot of these things that need to be avoided at the feasibility, at the planning stage, pre-planning stage.

[00:15:15] And that's a big thing, isn't it?

[00:15:16] Because it really – if the development is overshadowing those neighbors, they actually have grounds to object to council and council have an obligation for us or for the designer to have to address how are you actually mitigating that problem?

[00:15:34] Well, and if you can't show them, council have grounds to basically say reject it or give you an RFI, don't they?

[00:15:41] Yeah, like what happens if the neighbor has a pool and I have the massive balcony overlooking at their pool?

[00:15:46] So these sort of things, they need to be taken into consideration.

[00:15:49] There are other things that need to be taken into consideration.

[00:15:52] That is, for example, each council requires different things.

[00:15:56] Some of them requires deep soil.

[00:15:58] Yeah.

[00:15:59] Did the developer found out this?

[00:16:02] Do they allow it for the minimum required three meters a bay pack for deep soil that you cannot use?

[00:16:10] Or some councils require much bigger private open spaces that actually sometimes are minimum dimension of five by four.

[00:16:19] And they might need to be 1.2 meters away of any boundary.

[00:16:26] So all of these things, we need to put them together to see if it fits.

[00:16:31] If we, for example, start, this is important that sometimes developers start mixing type of developments

[00:16:38] and then they assume at the feasibility that that will work.

[00:16:44] So an example, in CDC, you are required to have 16 square meters of private open spaces.

[00:16:51] But for a townhouse development, sometimes you require 40.

[00:16:56] Yeah.

[00:16:56] So that needs to be allocated correctly for the council and for the type of development at the beginning.

[00:17:04] Yeah.

[00:17:05] And I guess with a lot of what we're even speaking about now, it really goes to show that you just can't guess.

[00:17:12] You just can't look at a 1,600 square meter piece of land and guess.

[00:17:18] Because sometimes, and I'm sure you've seen this, sometimes someone might be saying,

[00:17:22] oh, but there's two other townhouse developments on this street.

[00:17:26] They've got six on the same size site.

[00:17:28] But then you look at it, one of them might have been approved in 1980.

[00:17:32] The other one might have been approved even 10 years ago.

[00:17:35] But a lot can change within a council within 10 years, even five years, a lot can change,

[00:17:41] like the minimum width of a block or, you know, even certain, like, you know,

[00:17:46] there's so many different regulations and changes that come into place.

[00:17:49] And council don't, and that doesn't stand, does it, with council when you say,

[00:17:53] oh, but there's two others on this street.

[00:17:54] It doesn't stand if you don't meet the current today, you know, development control plans

[00:18:01] and LEP and all the requirements, it's not really a leg to stand on.

[00:18:06] Definitely not a guessing game.

[00:18:08] Yeah.

[00:18:09] We are not playing with little amount of money.

[00:18:13] We're playing with millions of dollars.

[00:18:16] So this development game is not to make it on the go.

[00:18:21] Yeah.

[00:18:22] It's not to say, oh, we will see, we will push the council,

[00:18:26] we will just go hard on them.

[00:18:27] No, it's not about that.

[00:18:29] Yeah.

[00:18:29] It's about what fits.

[00:18:30] Yeah.

[00:18:31] While complying with certain things, yes, we can request some variations

[00:18:35] and here and there, but we cannot really submit a DA with 40 requests of variations

[00:18:40] just because we need another one.

[00:18:43] Yeah.

[00:18:43] So we need to be able to find all of these requirements and fix them

[00:18:49] and address them before the developer finds out that they kind of,

[00:18:56] the amount that they require to make the numbers meet.

[00:19:00] And look, let's just talk some tools.

[00:19:03] So obviously there's so many different tools out there to check overlays and obviously some

[00:19:08] of them are free and some you've got to pay some money for.

[00:19:11] But what are some tools you're using on a weekly basis?

[00:19:14] Like when you're doing checks over sites and all that sort of thing,

[00:19:18] or even some tools that investors and developers that want to do a bit of their own research before they bring a site

[00:19:23] to a company to do feasibility sketches and feasibility work on a property?

[00:19:28] Like what sort of tools are out there?

[00:19:29] What are you using on a daily basis?

[00:19:31] They are free ones.

[00:19:32] They are some provided by the government and they are all the ones that we use that are paid.

[00:19:38] So in my daily basis, I use the e-planning, which is from the government, Australian government.

[00:19:45] And in there pretty much you type the address and it tells you a lot of information about your site.

[00:19:52] So it tells you most of the times your FSR, your building height, and some of the constraints that affect that particular site.

[00:20:00] It's important to note that if the lot belongs to a new subdivision, then it's not going to appear there as yet until it is registered.

[00:20:10] But in general, that is a great tool.

[00:20:12] It also gives us the option of opening straight away the latest DCP, DLEP, the things that in the constraints and requirements affect that site.

[00:20:26] So e-planning.

[00:20:28] Another one that we use all the time to check things is ARCHISTA.

[00:20:33] Yeah.

[00:20:34] That is, we use it a lot for preliminary assessment.

[00:20:38] We need to check then after the planning certificates and all of these things that also affect the site.

[00:20:44] But this one gives us a preliminary, pretty good assessment of what the site is.

[00:20:51] It's good because it gives us a rough idea of the area.

[00:20:55] It let us take dimensions, like quick dimensions to give us an understanding of roughly how much would be my setback or how far the tree is.

[00:21:05] It gets updated really often.

[00:21:08] Yeah.

[00:21:09] So when we type the address, it's not looking at the two-year-old Google Maps satellite image.

[00:21:19] It actually updates them really often.

[00:21:22] So the sizes of trees, the neighbors, all of these are really up to date.

[00:21:26] But also the good thing about it is that it has options where it tells you if it is bushfire affected, if it is flood affected.

[00:21:37] It does have some options of the contours.

[00:21:40] So it gives you an understanding of how much in the general scope of the area, how much it falls.

[00:21:46] Yeah.

[00:21:47] That is a big thing, especially for a stormwater if the site slopes backwards.

[00:21:53] Yeah.

[00:21:54] What are you going to do?

[00:21:55] Is it, do you fit 10, but you cannot drive there?

[00:21:59] Yeah.

[00:21:59] So important, right?

[00:22:01] Yeah.

[00:22:02] And it also has this new tool, which we love.

[00:22:06] And it tells you, well, it tells you the history of the development of when it was sold and these things,

[00:22:14] but also tells you the DAs and the approvals that you have around it in the area.

[00:22:20] So that gives you a pretty good understanding of what is happening near to you.

[00:22:26] That is what I mostly use for preliminary checks.

[00:22:31] And, well, when we already do the sketching and the actual feasibility,

[00:22:37] well, any software that gives you areas that you can draw on will work.

[00:22:43] Yeah.

[00:22:43] We use Revit just because it is what we use for 3D modelling and for our designs.

[00:22:49] But in general, another designer might be using AutoCAD, ArchiCAD, all of these other softwares that are there for area calculations and modelling.

[00:23:00] Yep.

[00:23:02] Excellent.

[00:23:03] Very good.

[00:23:04] And, look, do you have any other practical tips that you can offer investors and developers?

[00:23:09] Because I think, look, doing a feasibility sketch is, for me, one of the most important things because it involves planning, town planning.

[00:23:18] But I guess it's very hard for other consultants.

[00:23:21] You mentioned stormwater.

[00:23:23] Like if it's a backward sloping block, there's no room for an easement.

[00:23:27] Quite often it's not just the yield that you need to look at on the site,

[00:23:31] but it's other alternative elements that might involve other consultants,

[00:23:36] whether it be bushfire consultant, flood engineering or hydraulic or stormwater.

[00:23:43] There's so many other different constraints like it.

[00:23:46] And it's really hard, I guess, to get good feedback or good due diligence without when you're showing them a blank piece of paper.

[00:23:54] Because if they're not seeing, well, what are you putting on the site?

[00:23:57] Like, have you found that that it's so much easier to get really good sort of sound consultant advice then if you can actually physically show them like a feasibility sketch?

[00:24:08] I think the aim of this particular episode in this podcast is to try to educate the people of what is involved in a feasibility.

[00:24:17] Facibility is not only a sketch of masses.

[00:24:20] It needs to be analyzed from every point of view.

[00:24:24] We need to analyze other areas of constraint.

[00:24:27] Bushfire, stonewater, arborist, driveway crossings, power poles.

[00:24:33] All of these things that we need to analyze before purchasing.

[00:24:37] So it is important for a developer to understand that this might be money that is invested even before buying the block.

[00:24:46] Or even we might say to the investor, hey, let's walk away from this block.

[00:24:50] So in their mind is I wasted this money.

[00:24:54] But you didn't.

[00:24:55] You are just safely investing.

[00:24:59] So it needs to be an allocated amount for this feasibility and preliminary assessment.

[00:25:07] So when you walk in, you know where you're diving in.

[00:25:10] You're not saying, oh, but I guessed, this told me no.

[00:25:14] We go in there.

[00:25:15] We might be able to negotiate easements.

[00:25:18] We might be able to talk with the neighbor.

[00:25:20] We might be able to put an unsigned attention tank.

[00:25:24] But all of these things have been brief, discussed, and then we go and buy the site.

[00:25:30] So there are a lot of other things that we will talk further down the track in the podcast.

[00:25:35] So as delay settlements and all of these things where you have the time to analyze the site.

[00:25:40] Yes.

[00:25:41] It is important for people to know that these things don't come overnight.

[00:25:44] Yeah.

[00:25:45] Many times we get calls in the office saying, I need to get all of this information because I need to decide if I buy it tomorrow.

[00:25:53] Or we cannot tell you.

[00:25:55] You can't give accurate information.

[00:25:56] Exactly.

[00:25:57] I cannot tell you which are all the constraints, which are the feedback from the people that will be involved in a 10-hour break.

[00:26:04] Yeah.

[00:26:04] And I guess, you know, being on both sides of the fence, like I think you can see why consultants, whether it be designers, architects, engineers, town planners, you can see why if they're not given a great scope or they're not given a time frame to be able to prepare something, why they'll either not give you information or they'll give you very, very, very conservative information.

[00:26:30] Because the danger can be, and this is probably for all investors and developers out there, that what can happen is if then you're not giving that scope and that time to be able to develop that, you can't then blame a consultant if you can't hit that yield.

[00:26:48] And that's why I think a lot of people aren't willing to give information, which is fair enough too, when they're not given the ability to be able to work something out.

[00:26:58] So at the end of the day, it's like anything.

[00:27:00] If you don't invest money into something, don't ever expect, you know, a great result.

[00:27:06] Yeah, I think that the amount of money that it is expected to be invested in the feasibility, as I said, is minimal with the amount of benefits that you will get out of it.

[00:27:16] So I hope that this episode educates the people on finding the importance that this preliminary assessment has in the whole complexity of the developing sites.

[00:27:29] So this becomes a must.

[00:27:31] Yep.

[00:27:32] It is not as maybe necessary.

[00:27:34] No, it should be a must.

[00:27:36] Yeah.

[00:27:37] Because then the other things, they just start following and following stage by stage.

[00:27:44] Yeah.

[00:27:44] And not just telling the designer, I bought this, fit six, and then blame the designer for not making it happen.

[00:27:51] Yes.

[00:27:52] No, that's really good advice.

[00:27:53] And I saw someone's feasibility recently.

[00:27:56] I thought it was, I'd never seen it, and I thought it was a really smart way to do developments.

[00:28:01] And they sort of, for them, they sort of said anything for and up, they find that you need feasibility.

[00:28:09] Like you need to really go to that effort on, which I thought was really smart.

[00:28:12] But they actually had a line in their feasibility study where they ran their numbers, and they actually had an allocated amount.

[00:28:18] Like, you know, like a reasonable allocated line in their feasibility where that allowed for feasibility work.

[00:28:26] So they'd factored it into their numbers early in the piece.

[00:28:29] So if you don't use much of it, well, happy days.

[00:28:30] That's extra upside.

[00:28:32] But it's there.

[00:28:33] And that way, if you had to do three lots of studies, for example, it took you, like two sites didn't work, then you found the third one.

[00:28:40] They'd already allocated that into their numbers.

[00:28:43] So I just thought that was really smart.

[00:28:46] Like, just even for people out there, that's a really smart way to start to look at your feasibility.

[00:28:53] Allocate a little bit of room so that then you've got the confidence when you buy the site that you're going to be able to achieve what you're going to be able to achieve or that you can walk away.

[00:29:05] Well, that is a must for developers that do three, four, and more, right?

[00:29:12] But it is also, this should be also used for the people that is studying in the journey.

[00:29:19] Because sometimes we start with more than two, or even with the two, we should be able to check.

[00:29:27] We need to check, even if a dual occupancy is suitable.

[00:29:31] Yeah.

[00:29:31] Sometimes dual occupancies don't, won't work on the site either.

[00:29:36] Yeah.

[00:29:36] So we need to be able to analyse that.

[00:29:39] And that also makes part of the feasibility.

[00:29:41] So if somebody's listening here, feasibility is not, is must for more than four, but it is advisable for less if you don't have the experience.

[00:29:51] Yeah.

[00:29:51] Yeah, that's it.

[00:29:52] I think you need development, isn't it?

[00:29:54] You need some form of feasibility.

[00:29:56] Yeah.

[00:29:56] But definitely when you start talking townhouses or bigger developments, you, my thoughts are you've got no choice but to do a proper full-blown sketch, planning, like planning report, and full just compliance checks by all the consultants.

[00:30:13] Otherwise, you're going to buy a headache.

[00:30:15] Well, if you're playing with big amount of money.

[00:30:17] So the best thing you can do is be responsible and find out what is actually affecting the site and if the numbers will stack up.

[00:30:24] Yeah.

[00:30:24] So definitely it should be a must.

[00:30:26] Very good.

[00:30:27] Well, thank you for coming on again.

[00:30:28] You've always got so much wisdom around these types of developments.

[00:30:32] So we appreciate you sharing your wisdom and advice.

[00:30:35] Thank you.

[00:30:36] And look, thank you for all listening in.

[00:30:38] If there's anything that's really jumped out at you, feel free to get in touch.

[00:30:42] All the information will be in the show notes.

[00:30:44] And once again, make sure if you've really got something out of this episode, please share it with your friends, share it with fellow investors and developers,

[00:30:51] and make sure you like and subscribe to all of our available channels.

[00:30:55] Thanks for jumping in.

[00:30:56] Bye.

[00:30:57] Bye.