Mastering the Complying Development Process with Blake Sanders of Sanders & Co.

[00:00:00] As investors and developers, we see the world differently. This podcast uncovers the untold truths of what it really takes to become a multi-million dollar residential developer. I'm Nathan Battishall. Let's get to work.

[00:00:19] Well, welcome to another episode of The Residential Developer. My name is Nathan Battishall. I'm the host of this podcast and today we're really privileged to have a special guest with us today. We've got Blake Sanders from Sanders & Co. Good to have you in, Blake.

[00:00:32] Thank you. Happy to be here.

[00:00:33] And for those who don't know, Blake runs an incredible private certification company, very specialised, especially under the Low Rise Diversity Housing Code, which we're going to spend a little bit of time talking about today.

[00:00:47] But do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself personally, career-wise? What got you into private certifying, all that sort of thing?

[00:00:54] Yeah, actually a good friend of mine from high school got me into it many years ago. I didn't really know much about it and I knew that he did it. When he explained it to me, I was interested and did the study and then a few years later, he gave me a job and I worked in a company in Sydney that was a national company.

[00:01:19] And after a few years and before the birth of my first son, decided to resign and start my own business based in the Illawarra, but servicing all of Sydney and all of New South Wales if the job's right.

[00:01:37] And coming up to four years this month actually with my own business and it really took off and it's been a learning experience and constantly adjusting the business so that it works well for myself and my employees and for my clients like yourself.

[00:01:54] Excellent. No, it's been good and I think, I guess what brought us together probably at the inception of your business was very much a bit of a passion to go down the pathway of the low-rise diversity code when it obviously came out. I don't know if it's pre-COVID or after COVID, might have been just after possibly was it?

[00:02:15] Yeah, just after the initial start of COVID and continued during.

[00:02:21] Yeah, that's right. It came out at an interesting time and what I found interesting about you at that time, I spoke to a lot of different certifiers at that time and a lot of certifiers hadn't got their head around it, hadn't read up on it.

[00:02:35] I remember talking to you, you'd been engaged to oversee some plans from memory for a big builder in Sydney, just their duplexes and to make sure they complied under the code.

[00:02:48] Like, yeah, what was that like?

[00:02:51] Yeah, the company I used to work for had a big contract doing a lot of homes for a big builder.

[00:03:01] And when they found out about the low-rise code coming in, it was already out in the SEP.

[00:03:10] So you could read all the requirements and parts that you had to comply with.

[00:03:17] So they had already probably had high 20s, something like 26 designs of duplexes.

[00:03:26] And for my company, I went and sat away for a while and focused on assessing each one of those 26 dual occupancies and telling the building company how they complied or what they needed to do to change them to comply.

[00:03:44] Yeah.

[00:03:45] And in that, I'd done almost 26 to 30 assessments of dual occupancies before the code actually came into action.

[00:03:53] Yeah.

[00:04:23] I've got a lot of building designer clients and architects.

[00:04:26] So I feel like I've got a lot of experience over the four years and really fine-tuned the assessment process and the communication with the clients to ensure that they get back to me a compliant building design.

[00:04:45] Yeah.

[00:04:46] And look, I think even just going back a step, I think obviously you and I have got a good, pretty sound understanding of the code.

[00:04:54] And sometimes I've got to constantly remind myself that, especially our audience listening, some people are switched on with the code, others aren't.

[00:05:03] But probably just going back that next step, obviously the complying development CEP came into effect, I think it was 2008 or around that point, wasn't it, for housing?

[00:05:16] Obviously it's grown over time to encompass other elements, granny flats, secondary dwellings, and obviously the low-rise diversity code is one of the latest inceptions.

[00:05:29] Do you want to just break it down in, I guess, in simple terms, just for someone listening who maybe they're from another state, they want to start to dive into doing some projects in New South Wales, or maybe they're completely, they've generated some amazing wealth, they want to do some developments and projects, but they don't realise there's two different pathways, planning pathways.

[00:05:49] Do you want to just give us a rundown from a certified point of view of what a CDC is versus a DA?

[00:05:58] Yeah, so CDC stands for a Complying Development Certificate, and it is a development consent, just like a determination from a council is a development consent.

[00:06:10] They both come under parts or sections of the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act.

[00:06:15] And like you said, back in 2008, the New South Wales government saw a need for a building approval process that had strict guidelines, but was also effective for the occupants of that building and for neighbours.

[00:06:34] So they set those strict requirements and it's a fast-track approval process that combines the consent part, the planning part of the approval and the construction part.

[00:06:50] So with a development application, you'll get consent, but then after that you need a construction certificate to start work.

[00:06:58] With the Complying Development Certificate, it's an all-encompassing approval where you get the planning approval and the construction approval all in one.

[00:07:07] Yeah.

[00:07:08] So the state government back in 2008 saw a need to bring that in, and then that was just for housing, housing alterations, internal alterations.

[00:07:22] And now there's a range of different codes within that state environmental planning policy, ranging from housing, so general housing, housing alterations, the low-rise code, which is dual occupancies, manor houses and terraces.

[00:07:43] Then you have the demolition code.

[00:07:47] There's a new one that came in last year or thereabouts, agritourism and farm stay.

[00:07:53] Yep.

[00:07:54] There's also the subdivision code that you can do certain subdivisions under Complying Development.

[00:08:00] Yep.

[00:08:01] So yeah, I think it's been a great thing for the approval process for the construction industry.

[00:08:08] Yeah.

[00:08:09] And we still need it at the moment with the current housing crisis.

[00:08:14] Yep.

[00:08:16] So I'm doing my best as a private certified to make sure everything complies and we meet those requirements.

[00:08:21] Yep.

[00:08:21] But also get them out, the approvals out in a good timeframe so that we're not holding up the construction industry.

[00:08:27] Yep.

[00:08:28] And I guess that's a big thing, isn't it?

[00:08:30] Because I think we've seen the last, well, really the last probably decade, but more so of late, I've seen that there's such a shortage of planners in local government, in councils.

[00:08:44] So although it can be easy to go down hard on council, the reality is they are often understaffed.

[00:08:55] And as a result, the low rise code or just general CDC code is great because if it fully complies, it takes the pressure off council.

[00:09:05] It does, yeah.

[00:09:06] But it also creates industry.

[00:09:08] Like I remember when you started, it was just yourself, but now you've got a great team behind you.

[00:09:13] You've been able to employ people and you're obviously need, you're looking for more people as well.

[00:09:18] It's a great way to create employment and, you know, local people too within the area you're, within your sphere too.

[00:09:26] So I think it's great for that aspect.

[00:09:30] But like in terms of, so when the low rise code came out, obviously you were ahead of the game.

[00:09:38] Have you found, have you found that most consultants and clients have adapted well to really getting a good strong understanding to the code?

[00:09:47] Or have you found, or have you found it was a bit of a slow process to get people up to speed on?

[00:09:54] No, I think, I think most designers and consultants have picked it up pretty quickly.

[00:10:02] In saying that there are a lot of parts to the assessment, an assessment of a dual occupancy starts with planning, whether or not the site allows the permissibility of a dual occupancy.

[00:10:18] Then you look through the design and there's up to 60, 65 different sections with each with subsections where I have to check the design against that requirement.

[00:10:34] Yeah.

[00:10:34] So it takes a long time to work through that part.

[00:10:37] And then you get to the low rise design guide, which has another dozen, more than a dozen, multiple dozen parts that you have to check that the design is suitable.

[00:10:55] Yes.

[00:10:55] Not just from a planning perspective, but from an amenity.

[00:10:58] Yep.

[00:11:00] And providing a building that is suitable for occupation, for the developer who may live in one of them.

[00:11:09] Yep.

[00:11:09] Or if they on-sell it to future owners.

[00:11:13] Yep.

[00:11:13] You know, decades down the track that we have a suitable building to live in.

[00:11:18] Yeah.

[00:11:18] You know, to today's standards.

[00:11:21] Yep.

[00:11:23] And then after that, then I have to do a building code check.

[00:11:27] You know, checking fire separation.

[00:11:32] Checking even setbacks for external fire separation.

[00:11:39] You know, checking, you know, the stormwater drainage.

[00:11:43] There's so many different elements to an assessment of a dual occupancy.

[00:11:47] Yeah.

[00:11:48] That it can take days before I finish one and then get the list of requirements back to yourself or the designer to then make those adjustments.

[00:12:00] Yep.

[00:12:00] And so I think everyone has really adjusted well because most of the designs I get are so close to compliance that there's only usually less than a handful of items that need adjustment to bring it into compliance.

[00:12:17] Yeah.

[00:12:18] Yep.

[00:12:19] Yep.

[00:12:19] In terms of pre-checking, have you obviously making sure that a site is suitable for a compliant development is obviously one of the biggest key elements,

[00:12:36] especially if someone is either buying a site or they've recently purchased a site.

[00:12:43] But there's no, just because it's within the right zoning, I've seen this where some people just think, great, we can do a CDC without checking overlays,

[00:12:54] without checking obviously different restrictions, whether it could be a flood.

[00:12:59] Obviously, you can do a CDC within flood affected areas or even bushfire affected areas.

[00:13:03] But obviously, it's got to be within reason, about 29 or less if it's bushfire.

[00:13:09] And obviously, you've got to have your engineer or flood engineer confirm that CDC is permissible.

[00:13:15] But are there any tools that you recommend people use?

[00:13:21] Like just for people out there, because I'm really big on investors and developers not doing all of the checks themselves to rely on good planners, designers, certifiers.

[00:13:31] But I think it's important for them to understand as well, for their own education of that there are free tools out there that you can use to check overlays and things.

[00:13:40] Are there any tools that you use in your day to day that are helpful for just the average developer investor or builder developer or mum and dad investor too, like for doing checks over sites?

[00:13:52] Just let me get this tickling.

[00:13:54] Yeah, all good.

[00:13:55] All good.

[00:13:57] That's the beauty of not being live.

[00:13:59] There was no parking at Sutherland.

[00:14:32] No parking at Sutherland.

[00:14:34] Blake will love this one.

[00:14:36] The trains are shit.

[00:14:37] The trains are shit.

[00:14:38] And there's something that I'm doing a long time this morning.

[00:14:49] My son came into bed with me this morning, my two-year-old.

[00:14:52] Yeah.

[00:14:53] There was no traffic.

[00:14:54] There was no traffic.

[00:14:55] Hey, both of you.

[00:15:21] I had a bad flu the first time I did these episodes, first four, and I was like, freaking hell.

[00:15:28] Do you want to see?

[00:15:37] I can't remember what we were up to.

[00:15:42] Oh, yeah.

[00:15:43] Do you want me to ask that question again or?

[00:15:45] Yes, please.

[00:15:46] And you can just pull it out?

[00:15:48] Because you do the editing, yeah.

[00:15:49] I can.

[00:15:52] Oh, yeah.

[00:15:53] If you just answer because I think I asked, you know.

[00:15:55] Yeah.

[00:15:55] I was trying to wait until the end of your question before I –

[00:16:02] so let us know when I can start?

[00:16:06] Yeah.

[00:16:09] Okay, yeah.

[00:16:10] So I have a number of different pages on my – the main page of my homepage on the computer.

[00:16:25] And many of them are links directly to websites that I can check, things like that.

[00:16:32] The first one I would suggest is the ePlanning Spatial Viewer.

[00:16:36] And you can type in the address of the site.

[00:16:40] And like you said, with the overlays, you can tick several boxes and it can show you terrestrial biodiversity, bushfire.

[00:16:51] Flooding doesn't come up yet.

[00:16:52] The mapping isn't great for flooding anywhere in New South Wales.

[00:16:57] Acid sulfate soils, which sometimes can be somewhat detrimental to design of certain projects.

[00:17:06] So there's that website.

[00:17:09] There's other ones similar where you can look at the site, like six maps.

[00:17:19] You can also use Google satellite and street view.

[00:17:22] It can give you not an up-to-date view of the – satellite view of the site and street view,

[00:17:30] but can give you an early understanding of what it looks like.

[00:17:34] Yep.

[00:17:35] There's also a geocortex viewer that's similar to the ePlanning Spatial Viewer that has a different kind of mapping.

[00:17:43] Yeah.

[00:17:44] And all of them, depending on the project, can be beneficial to getting those preliminary checks and knowing the site conditions.

[00:17:53] Yeah.

[00:17:54] Yep.

[00:17:56] But there's other things you can just look at, looking at the site, like the fall of the site, whether it falls to the street,

[00:18:06] to consider the stormwater design.

[00:18:09] Yeah.

[00:18:10] Which is massive, isn't it?

[00:18:11] It is.

[00:18:13] As you know, we've had a few that couldn't go ahead because we couldn't get that fall to the street.

[00:18:20] Yeah.

[00:18:20] In certain local government areas.

[00:18:22] Yep.

[00:18:24] Trees are a big one to look out for.

[00:18:27] Yeah.

[00:18:29] Because you either need – if they're over eight metres and six metres if they're further away from the building

[00:18:34] or part of – in the way of another part of a structure.

[00:18:38] Yep.

[00:18:38] Then you need a tree removal permit.

[00:18:40] Yes.

[00:18:40] The Complying Development Certificate doesn't approve the removal of that.

[00:18:45] Yep.

[00:18:45] You need to consider whether it needs to be pruned as well.

[00:18:48] Yeah.

[00:18:49] You know, I've had some – we've had branches overhanging the new roof space so they would need to be pruned.

[00:18:57] Yeah.

[00:18:58] And not just trees on that lot but surrounding the lot.

[00:19:03] Yeah.

[00:19:04] You need to be three metres from the base of the trunk of a protected tree.

[00:19:10] Yeah.

[00:19:10] But in saying that doesn't mean that you can just build up to the three metres.

[00:19:15] You probably need in many situations an arborist to report on the tree and its tree protection zone and the roots.

[00:19:26] Yep.

[00:19:26] While you might be three metres away from it, the root might go a lot further.

[00:19:29] Yeah.

[00:19:30] And the tree be impacted by the footprint of the building.

[00:19:34] So trees are really important one to look out for.

[00:19:38] I've had several projects recently that couldn't go ahead with the designs because of –

[00:19:44] Because of trees.

[00:19:45] Trees on neighbours that are right on the boundary line with the neighbouring property.

[00:19:50] Yep.

[00:19:51] And, you know, those people – developers may have bought that site thinking that there's no trees on this site affecting the development.

[00:20:03] And they come up with a design.

[00:20:06] That was so close apart from a few things like that.

[00:20:09] Yep.

[00:20:10] And it can just throw the design right out.

[00:20:12] Yeah.

[00:20:13] And they have to start again.

[00:20:15] Yep.

[00:20:15] No, it's right, isn't it?

[00:20:17] And I think if someone's looking to buy a site and they haven't – and they're not willing to, say, pay an arborist to look at some trees or factor in a larger side setback for a portion of the land,

[00:20:32] like you're right, it can make or break a project.

[00:20:36] And I think that's where really educating investors, developers, mum and dad investors, or even just people wanting to do a development, maybe live in one side.

[00:20:46] Like it's so vital to do thorough due diligence but also be prepared to walk away from a site that just – like it could be a tree but a tree can kill a development.

[00:20:59] Yep.

[00:21:00] So be willing to walk away and find a suitable site.

[00:21:05] But – and in terms of – is there any other free tools out there?

[00:21:13] Obviously LEP, getting to – if you're doing dual locks, for example, it's probably pretty key to learn to read the LEP for that particular area, I guess, isn't it?

[00:21:23] Yeah, there is a part in the policy, the low-rise code that directs you to look back at – back to the local environment plans for the individual councils.

[00:21:37] Yeah.

[00:21:37] And individual councils may have on that particular point additional lot size requirements for dual occupancies in their areas.

[00:21:49] So while under the low-rise housing diversity code and under the state policy, you can do a dual occupancy on sites as small as 400 metres squared.

[00:22:02] Yeah.

[00:22:03] The individual council may have higher limits on that.

[00:22:06] Yeah.

[00:22:06] They might have – maybe 450 in that local government area.

[00:22:10] Yeah.

[00:22:10] Or 500 or 550 and in some cases up to 800.

[00:22:15] Yeah.

[00:22:15] So while you might look at the site, be suitable under the low-rise code, you've got to remember that you've got to check the local environment plan for their lot size requirement.

[00:22:30] Yep.

[00:22:32] And they also have complying development requirements within that as well.

[00:22:37] So they'll have – I need to check the complying development requirements.

[00:22:43] And then they have a schedule of requirements under complying development as well.

[00:22:47] Some councils don't have any.

[00:22:48] Yep.

[00:22:48] Or not many items.

[00:22:51] And some have quite a lot more.

[00:22:53] Yep.

[00:22:53] Where you do the assessment through the low-rise housing diversity code.

[00:22:59] And then you have to do another assessment under the LEP to make sure it meets every part of the –

[00:23:06] Yeah.

[00:23:06] Yeah.

[00:23:06] Legislative requirements.

[00:23:08] Yep.

[00:23:08] And I guess that – you're right.

[00:23:10] That can bring a lot of complexity too.

[00:23:12] And I guess it's sort of – it's hard – sometimes I find it's hard for people to understand the different hierarchies of the different codes.

[00:23:22] Obviously, you've got your DCP, which is your council's development control plan, which is obviously relevant to a DA.

[00:23:28] But then you've got the LEP that's relevant to a DA and parts of a CDC as well.

[00:23:34] Like how – in terms of a state legislation, where does that sit in terms of a hierarchy?

[00:23:39] Yeah.

[00:23:40] So the New South Wales state legislation has kind of three levels of hierarchy.

[00:23:44] You have the acts, which are the laws that come out of bills in parliament.

[00:23:52] Yep.

[00:23:52] And then those acts usually have corresponding regulations.

[00:23:57] Yep.

[00:23:57] They may have one or two.

[00:23:58] In the case of the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act, it has two sub-regulations.

[00:24:06] One for development certification and fire safety that you use for DAs and construction certificates.

[00:24:13] And it has a separate one for environmental planning and assessment regulation, which you look at for complying development applications.

[00:24:22] Yep.

[00:24:23] So it moves down the hierarchy from acts, regulations, and then instruments.

[00:24:29] Yep.

[00:24:30] And that third level is where you have the state environmental planning policies and the local environment plans.

[00:24:37] Yep.

[00:24:38] And they're the parts of the legislation.

[00:24:40] But like you said just before, councils don't just have the local environment plan.

[00:24:47] They have the development control plans, which have additional controls.

[00:24:51] Yes.

[00:24:51] Yeah.

[00:24:52] That you have to check.

[00:24:53] First – which – one of those is stormwater.

[00:24:56] Yep.

[00:24:56] So when I do an assessment for a dual occupancy under the low-rise code, I then have to go check the development control plan and look at the stormwater design to make sure that it complies with the development control plan of that council area.

[00:25:14] Yeah.

[00:25:15] Yeah.

[00:25:15] So there's a lot of complexity around it.

[00:25:18] Yep.

[00:25:18] And I think that's where I guess some investors and developers can get mixed up.

[00:25:26] I see this often where they may have done a couple of DAs in a particular council and they'll say, oh, we only need a six-metre setback.

[00:25:35] And they're looking to do a CDC.

[00:25:36] And it's like, well, this neighbour's 10 metres and this other one's nine metres.

[00:25:41] So you've actually got to be the average of the two, nine and a half.

[00:25:45] Yeah, that's a really important one that you just brought up, which goes, you know, up at that level of importance with site falls for drainage and trees.

[00:26:00] The other really big important one is your neighbour's setbacks.

[00:26:04] Yep.

[00:26:05] If you have two neighbours within 40 metres of the lot, then you have to have – your setback has to be an average of those two.

[00:26:13] Yes.

[00:26:16] And the reason for that is to create a streetscape that's consistent.

[00:26:21] Yep.

[00:26:22] So that you don't have two houses that are further back from the street and then a brand new dual occupancy that's really close to the street.

[00:26:29] Yeah.

[00:26:30] It affects the streetscape and the flow of the buildings along the street.

[00:26:35] Yeah.

[00:26:36] And it can be really, really detrimental to a project if the neighbouring properties have large setbacks.

[00:26:47] Yeah.

[00:26:47] You know, beyond six metres, seven metres.

[00:26:50] Yeah.

[00:26:50] You know, sometimes up to 11 metres.

[00:26:52] Yep.

[00:26:54] And then you have to be the average of those two.

[00:26:57] So if you've got a nine metre setback on one side and 11 on the other, then you need a 10 metre setback.

[00:27:03] Yeah.

[00:27:03] And if your lot isn't very long.

[00:27:06] That's it.

[00:27:06] In length, you're pushing that building towards the back of the property, the rear boundary.

[00:27:13] And then from there, you need a three metre setback up to 4.5 metres in height and then eight metres after that.

[00:27:19] Yeah.

[00:27:20] So you're kind of squashing your building.

[00:27:22] Yep.

[00:27:23] It's probably one of the big, for me, CDC generally is the best pathway to go, but the setbacks can be a real killer.

[00:27:33] However, that's one of the times I've found that sometimes it can be better to go down the DA pathway or if you haven't bought the site yet, possibly let it pass.

[00:27:45] Because sometimes the setback can just dictate that the site's really not developable to put anything of a size that maybe might net you a return.

[00:27:56] Yeah.

[00:27:57] So in saying that, you can usually always come up with a design that will comply.

[00:28:03] Yeah.

[00:28:04] But that's whether it's feasible.

[00:28:06] Yeah.

[00:28:07] From a construction cost and if you're looking for a profit from it.

[00:28:12] Yeah.

[00:28:13] From that aspect.

[00:28:14] And that's not something I really look at, but something you would understand more with your clients.

[00:28:18] Yeah.

[00:28:19] And I guess you brought it back to six maps.

[00:28:22] Obviously you can't get it 100% accurate, front setback, but the beauty is this day and age there are tools out there for people to do their own initial due diligence and obviously try and make sure you've got some contingency there.

[00:28:38] Just because it says 11, maybe factor in a little bit more because six maps is not obviously always accurate.

[00:28:44] Yeah.

[00:28:44] So I have to go off the site survey from a land surveyor.

[00:28:48] Yeah.

[00:28:49] That's where I get the accurate dimension from.

[00:28:52] Yeah.

[00:28:53] So you can look at, if you're looking at a site, do some investigating, see if there's an existing site survey that can give you those accurate dimensions.

[00:29:04] Yeah.

[00:29:06] A lot of them don't always have the neighbours' buildings on there.

[00:29:09] But I'd suggest to any land surveyors or any building designers that when they're getting that site survey of the site, always include the neighbours' setbacks.

[00:29:23] Yeah.

[00:29:23] Front setbacks.

[00:29:24] Yeah.

[00:29:25] So that even for future development, if you're not necessarily going CDC, you've got that information there.

[00:29:32] Yep.

[00:29:32] And you don't have to set the land surveyor back again.

[00:29:34] Yeah.

[00:29:35] To get those dimensions.

[00:29:36] Very true.

[00:29:37] And look, another one, and I think you actually, this came about because of your knowledge.

[00:29:44] We had a client who bought a site.

[00:29:46] They based it on the front set.

[00:29:47] Yes, they did the right thing, went off the front setback.

[00:29:49] But the problem was the garage was sort of five or six metres in front of the actual, the building line.

[00:29:56] Do you want to just speak into that?

[00:29:58] Like the actual setback, the front setback, and this is debunking, I guess, a bit of a myth that I think a lot of people come unstuck on, where they actually base it from the closest part of the building to the boundary.

[00:30:11] But often, quite often, the closest part of the boundary is a garage or is a carport or is a porch.

[00:30:19] But that's not actually the front setback.

[00:30:22] Am I correct?

[00:30:23] That's correct.

[00:30:24] Perfect.

[00:30:24] The, because the low-rise housing diversity code is legislation, that almost every word within that has a meaning and a specific meaning.

[00:30:38] And a lot of them are defined.

[00:30:40] And they're in either the definitions in 1.5 interpretation of the set or in a dictionary at the end of the schedules in that piece of legislation or policy.

[00:30:55] So when you're looking at, like you said, building line, you can't just make an assumption to what the building line is or what you think it is.

[00:31:04] You have to look at the definition of building line and then in the definitions it describes what the building line is and what it is not.

[00:31:13] For example, attached development or ancillary development.

[00:31:17] And so that means that a garage is legally considered attached development.

[00:31:23] Yeah.

[00:31:24] And therefore is not part of the building line.

[00:31:27] Yes.

[00:31:27] Nor is a porch or other building elements like that.

[00:31:31] Yeah.

[00:31:32] Yeah.

[00:31:32] Um, and so that's why it's best to get the land surveyor to document it.

[00:31:39] Uh, because most of the time they'll know that the building, the definition of building line and then they'll include the dimension to the main wall of the house.

[00:31:48] Yes.

[00:31:49] Rather than the garage that's forward or a porch or another building element.

[00:31:53] Yep.

[00:31:54] And that, that goes not just for building line, but a lot of other, uh, words or, um, uh, parts, uh, sentences.

[00:32:06] You really have to sometimes break it down and look at each individual word and make sure that you know what the definition of that word is under the policy.

[00:32:14] Yep.

[00:32:14] And not just make an assumption.

[00:32:16] Yeah.

[00:32:17] Yeah.

[00:32:17] Into what it generally might mean.

[00:32:19] Yep.

[00:32:20] No, that's really good.

[00:32:21] And are there any other, just while we're talking about some of the pitfalls or some of the areas where you've found that maybe people have, um, not thought of when it comes to a compliance point of view, are there any other key areas?

[00:32:34] Setbacks are obviously a big one.

[00:32:35] Are there any other key areas where you've found that people have come unstuck?

[00:32:40] Um, I think.

[00:32:42] Um, honestly, do you see like a common, just maybe a common one you've seen or a common one where people have not factored in, um, certain key areas of a low rise approval?

[00:32:52] Um, probably coming to mind, not so much of the smaller key areas, but, uh, the bulk in general.

[00:32:59] Uh, I find, uh, that a lot of developers that want the maximum gross floor area.

[00:33:08] Yeah.

[00:33:08] Um, that might not necessarily be suitable for the site.

[00:33:13] Yeah.

[00:33:13] It, it might comply.

[00:33:15] Uh, you also need to then get your landscaping to comply.

[00:33:18] Yeah.

[00:33:18] So you're pushing the limits on gross floor area and landscaping.

[00:33:23] Um, and it's not my expertise, but is that really going to get you, um, the result that you want?

[00:33:31] Yeah.

[00:33:31] Or could you, uh, just shrink it slightly?

[00:33:34] Yep.

[00:33:35] So that it's not pushed to those gross floor area limits or landscaping, uh, limits and still get a great result, a great design building.

[00:33:43] Yeah.

[00:33:44] That is well within the compliant, um, dimensions and restrictions.

[00:33:50] Yep.

[00:33:50] Uh, and that way I, I think you would get a better product, especially from, uh, a landscaping perspective.

[00:33:58] Yeah.

[00:33:59] Um, outside, uh, space, you know, it's important.

[00:34:03] And if you can get, uh, a good transition from outside, from inside to outside and have enough outside space.

[00:34:10] Yeah.

[00:34:10] Um, I think that's a better outcome than, than pushing the limits on the floor area.

[00:34:15] Yep.

[00:34:15] I agree.

[00:34:16] And the reality is duplexes, even terraces to a degree now, they're more and more common and they, they are, they're like a house.

[00:34:25] Most of them are four bedroom.

[00:34:27] Yep.

[00:34:27] Um, two bathroom.

[00:34:28] Obviously the main bedroom normally has an ensuite walking rope.

[00:34:31] So they are virtually like a house.

[00:34:33] So you did right.

[00:34:34] Like it's, if it's like a house, you want it to feel like a house.

[00:34:38] And, and, uh, a lot of young families or downsizers, empty nesters, there's all different demographics now that are going down the pathway of a, of a duplex to lower a mortgage or whatever the reason may be.

[00:34:49] So you're right, like a 180 square meter, well-designed, really well-designed duplex indoor and outdoor can sometimes absolutely trump a two, a two 10 or a two 20 that you can do.

[00:35:03] Um, that's just purely just use space for the size, for the sake of space, but it hasn't, hasn't been effectively designed.

[00:35:10] Yeah.

[00:35:11] And, and another thing to consider is, uh, energy efficiency.

[00:35:14] Yeah.

[00:35:15] The bigger, uh, spaces that you have and compartments, you know, the harder it is to, uh, make them warm or cool, um, um, um, from an energy efficiency perspective.

[00:35:27] Um, so, you know, smaller houses, um, are better from, uh, from that perspective.

[00:35:34] Yeah.

[00:35:34] And I understand people like space.

[00:35:36] I like space.

[00:35:36] Yeah.

[00:35:37] Um, but you gotta, you gotta meet in the middle, I think.

[00:35:40] Yeah.

[00:35:40] Yeah.

[00:35:41] Have a great space that works.

[00:35:43] That's not, uh, energy, uh, that's not, uh, not energy efficient or, or could be more energy efficient.

[00:35:55] Yeah.

[00:35:56] If it was smaller.

[00:35:57] Yep.

[00:35:58] And especially since October when the, uh, seven star rating came out in New South Wales, it's getting harder to, to, um, to meet that seven star demand.

[00:36:08] And, um, especially if you're not wanting to go down the pathway, not everyone, some areas can effectively justify, uh, high levels of glazing, uh, glazing types.

[00:36:20] But certain areas you, you overcapitalize.

[00:36:22] And that's where, uh, you get a lot of developers.

[00:36:25] They just think, uh, you get a lot of developers.

[00:36:27] They just think, I don't want double glaze.

[00:36:28] Well, but you, you also wanted 220 square meters per side.

[00:36:32] So you've got to, you've got to meet in the middle.

[00:36:34] You, you, you can't have your cake and eat it sometimes.

[00:36:37] So you, you're spot on there.

[00:36:39] And in, look, in terms of, um, the process of, of a CDC, obviously anyone doing it day to day, it's just like second nature to you and your team, even to myself.

[00:36:51] Uh, but just for someone who doesn't do it regularly, I think it's important for people to understand the process.

[00:36:59] Firstly, so they, they've got a good clear picture for their own timeframes and their own understanding of the elements involved, but also so that they, uh, they're able to trust in their consultants and in their team.

[00:37:12] And I think that's sometimes one of the problems is, is a lack of knowledge on process enables, causes people to get frustrated or, or to, to, uh, overplay their hand in a process that actually, um, they just don't understand.

[00:37:26] Like what, what, what does a CDC approval process look like in terms of the steps involved and even just an idea of some timeframes, um, just, just for people that are listening that are wanting to do projects?

[00:37:41] Yeah, well, I think that your first step, once you've identified a potential site is to go to a, uh, a good building designer, um, someone that knows the complying development policies.

[00:37:54] Uh, and most, uh, and most, and most designers do these days.

[00:37:58] Um, there you're, uh, I would say your main contact because they, they're going to have consultants, like geotechnical engineers, structural engineers, hydraulic engineers, land surveyors, certifiers.

[00:38:14] Uh, and you know, they can manage that, that process for you.

[00:38:19] Um, it's never going to be, uh, extremely quick.

[00:38:25] Yeah.

[00:38:25] Because from the main thing, I guess is the drawing of, of the, the architectural drawings.

[00:38:33] Yeah.

[00:38:33] Your structural drawings, hydraulic.

[00:38:35] Yeah.

[00:38:35] You know, they take weeks in themselves.

[00:38:37] Yeah.

[00:38:38] Um, from a certification, um, process, um, standpoint, it can be quite quick.

[00:38:46] Uh, it seems, I would say people probably feel it seems longer, but there's a lot of time in the middle where we've done our work and we're just waiting on documents to come in.

[00:38:57] Yeah.

[00:38:57] Um, that, that gap between assessing a project and asking for the list of documents and requirements to then getting them can be quite long.

[00:39:08] Yeah.

[00:39:09] And so people might feel that, um, we take longer than what we actually do, but, but usually, um, I would say at worst case, you know, a week, once we're engaged, um, and we're given plans and documentation, um, you know, I can, it'll take me about a week.

[00:39:29] Yeah.

[00:39:29] To assess those plans and tell you if there's any changes that need to happen.

[00:39:33] Yep.

[00:39:33] Um, and, uh, and request all the documents and, and different projects may require different consultants.

[00:39:42] Yeah.

[00:39:42] Like we've discussed before, uh, arborist, not all projects will require an arborist.

[00:39:47] Yeah.

[00:39:48] Uh, but, but a lot will.

[00:39:49] Yep.

[00:39:50] Uh, bushfire consultant, not all will require bushfire consultant, but some will.

[00:39:54] Yep.

[00:39:55] Flood's the, the other big one.

[00:39:56] Yeah.

[00:39:57] Um, just because it's flood effect, it doesn't mean you, we can't do it complying development.

[00:40:01] Yeah.

[00:40:02] But we need to do, uh, a certain amount of checks and you need a hydraulic flood, flood engineer, uh, to certify that and do those checks.

[00:40:11] Yes.

[00:40:12] Um, uh, so you've got a lot of consultants to get the documentation and, uh, requirements in the package after we've assessed it.

[00:40:26] Um, uh, uh, you know, a few documents at a time.

[00:40:31] Um, uh, you know, a few documents at a time.

[00:40:32] Um, in that case, um, you know, a couple of days, uh, you know, two to three days, uh, we can give you an update.

[00:40:38] So yes, that's document suitable.

[00:40:40] It met all the requirements.

[00:40:44] Um, uh, and then, you know, there might be a few weeks where, um, there's only a few documents left and, and as they come in, uh, we assess them, mark them off.

[00:40:55] And once we have everything in order, um, uh, we can approve it either that day or the next day.

[00:41:04] Yeah.

[00:41:04] It's just a matter of typing up a certificate.

[00:41:06] Yep.

[00:41:07] Um, and, and, and doing our due diligence and making sure all the documents are in order and, and we have everything that we need.

[00:41:15] Yep.

[00:41:16] Um, and I guess the one, one of the ones we found probably we learned the hard way a couple of years ago was, um, the section 138.

[00:41:25] It's like not getting those early in the piece, um, because it's all well and good getting just about everything ticked off on a, on a duplex design.

[00:41:36] But you still, you, if you need two driveway crossovers, um, the whole thing might comply, but if council's not accepting of a second driveway crossover, they might want one.

[00:41:47] Every council's different.

[00:41:48] Um, do you find that's a, that's a key thing?

[00:41:51] Like we actually do it earlier in the design piece now before we even go too far with the assessment because it can really, firstly, hold a project up.

[00:41:59] Secondly, it can actually change the whole design if council isn't satisfied with that.

[00:42:04] Definitely. And that's another, another one of those items that, um, you have to go back to council for, even though it's complying development and you can use a private certifier.

[00:42:13] There are certain parts where you need council approval and section 138 driveway approvals are one of those.

[00:42:20] Yeah.

[00:42:21] Um, and, uh, you know, people have asked me, do I need this before or can I get it after I've submitted the application?

[00:42:28] Um, but the legislation's clear. You need the consent for the, the driveway crossings, um, under section 138 of the Roads Act, um, before the issue of a complying development certificate.

[00:42:41] Yeah.

[00:42:41] And it is important because if you've got a garage in a location where you want the driveway to come in and then council don't approve it in that location, it might be too close to a corner.

[00:42:53] There may be street trees or other infrastructure that it affects, then you have to move your garage.

[00:43:00] Yeah.

[00:43:00] Uh, and if you've, you can't do it, but if you do get the approval for it and then they, they don't approve the driveway in that location, then you have to do it, do a redesign.

[00:43:10] Yeah.

[00:43:10] So it's better to get those early on, um, so that if you do have to redesign the location of the garage, um, you can do that early on rather than right at the end.

[00:43:19] That's it. Yeah. It's a lot, it's a lot, it's a lot, it's a lot more cost effective to do it early at a conceptual stage than it is when you've got all of your consultants, everything's underway.

[00:43:29] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're spot on.

[00:43:31] And look, that's not the, the only one that's, uh, in certain council areas, more regional council areas.

[00:43:37] Um, you'll need a section 68.

[00:43:39] Yep.

[00:43:39] Uh, approval for, uh, water, sewer, stormwater works, um, from those councils, which can take a number of weeks as well.

[00:43:47] Yeah.

[00:43:48] And look, what about tap-ins as well?

[00:43:50] Um, do you find that can sometimes hold things up if, if you're looking to do encasement or anything like that, of that nature too?

[00:43:58] Have you, have you seen that where that's held up a, an approval where someone forgot to get a peg out or, or to get, um, you know, like an approval, whether it be with Sydney water, if you, if you're within that catchment area or, or, or somewhere else, have you seen that hold up projects at all?

[00:44:13] Yeah. To a certain extent.

[00:44:15] Like a, like a planning.

[00:44:16] Yeah. Uh, so it's, it's good early on if you've got your footprint and your, your excavation depths to do that Sydney water tap-in application.

[00:44:28] Um, if it's not close to any infrastructure or assets, you can get a green light, uh, an approval document, um, straight away.

[00:44:36] Yep.

[00:44:37] Um, other situations may require a manual assessment from, uh, individual person at Sydney water.

[00:44:44] Yep. Um, they can also then give the green light, um, where, but in some situations where it will affect an asset or infrastructure, it'll come back, you know, red, not approved.

[00:44:58] And you have to go to a water service coordinator, um, and you have to get, uh, if it's the sewer, for example, the, a plumber to do a, um, uh, peg out, a diagram of where the sewer is and the depth that it is.

[00:45:12] And then the water service coordinator can then, uh, uh, give you the approval subject to requirements.

[00:45:19] Yes.

[00:45:19] Um, which may be, you know, footings or pews to a certain depth or keep a certain distance away from the sewer.

[00:45:26] Um, and that can take a number of weeks from the water service coordinator, but, but generally they're, they're pretty onto it.

[00:45:33] Um, most water service coordinators and, um, I'd say consistent in their timeframes and getting back to you.

[00:45:41] So if you factor that in as a possibility, um, you should be fine.

[00:45:47] And I guess the beauty is a lot of this can be done prior to submitting for that final assessment, can't it?

[00:45:52] Yeah, it'd be, it'd be great for me.

[00:45:55] Um, if I had everything, you know, in that, uh, in, uh, a perfect situation.

[00:46:02] Yeah.

[00:46:03] Um, you could submit every document and every consultant's work to me in an application.

[00:46:09] Yeah.

[00:46:10] And if it ticks all the boxes, then it could be ready for approval.

[00:46:14] Yeah.

[00:46:14] After one submission.

[00:46:16] Yeah.

[00:46:16] Uh, and that would help me with, uh, giving you a list of requirements and assessments.

[00:46:22] Cause every time I find a non-compliance, then I have to, I check it a couple of times.

[00:46:27] Yeah.

[00:46:27] Um, uh, and, and, and sometimes, um, if, um, a compliance that might be borderline, I'll

[00:46:34] have to check a few times, but if, if a project's, uh, easy to assess, it's clear that it's, it

[00:46:41] complies and all you have all the documentation in order.

[00:46:44] Yeah.

[00:46:45] Um, there's no reason why it can't be approved within a couple of days.

[00:46:48] Yeah.

[00:46:48] Or a few days from submission of all the documents.

[00:46:52] Yep.

[00:46:53] Now, what about just going back a step?

[00:46:55] Cause I think that's the perfect scenario, isn't it?

[00:46:58] If every, if you, if you're able to get all the ducks in order, but I guess there are some

[00:47:03] people out there where, um, they want to get the confidence of, um, that it's on the right

[00:47:09] track from an approval point of view before they engage too many consultants and spend a

[00:47:13] lot more money on engineering, structural stormwater, the whole works.

[00:47:17] So obviously you can't do a full assessment when you've, when you don't have all that,

[00:47:21] all of those moving pieces.

[00:47:22] But I guess from a low rise diversity code point of view, you can do, if the architecturals

[00:47:27] are in order, I guess you can do a, quite a extensive assessment from a compliance point

[00:47:33] of view.

[00:47:33] Do you find that that's a common thing that people will do?

[00:47:37] They'll give you a really detailed architectural set so you can begin that initial process?

[00:47:41] Yeah.

[00:47:41] Most of the time, um, people don't want to take that risk to get structural design,

[00:47:48] um, hydraulic design when the setbacks might change and then the slab set out has to change.

[00:47:55] Yeah.

[00:47:56] Or there's certain elements, uh, or frescoes or patios that can't be there.

[00:48:01] Yeah.

[00:48:02] Um, then they have to be removed from the structural plans and you have to do an amendment and there'd

[00:48:06] be a cost for that.

[00:48:07] Yeah.

[00:48:08] Um, that's probably where the, the designer would, if, if they're an excellent designer

[00:48:14] and, um, they're confident that everything complies, then you can potentially get all

[00:48:21] those ducks in order.

[00:48:22] Yeah.

[00:48:23] Um, based on that confidence.

[00:48:25] Yeah.

[00:48:25] Um, and I suppose if you've, if you've got a budget that allows a few variations from a

[00:48:34] structural engineer or hydraulic engineer or even the designer.

[00:48:38] Um, it may be quicker to factor in a couple of variations so that you just adjusting a structural

[00:48:48] design.

[00:48:49] Yep.

[00:48:49] Just slightly, which might only take a few days as opposed to, okay, now it complies.

[00:48:54] We need the whole design.

[00:48:56] Yeah.

[00:48:56] It might take another few weeks.

[00:48:57] Yep.

[00:48:58] Um, things to consider.

[00:49:00] Yeah.

[00:49:07] In order.

[00:49:08] Makes your life easier.

[00:49:10] Yeah.

[00:49:10] My life easier and you can get the approval quicker.

[00:49:13] Yeah, exactly.

[00:49:13] And time's a huge factor now.

[00:49:14] I think obviously CDC is a lot quicker than a DA pathway, but, um, yeah, a lack of planning

[00:49:21] or a lack of, um, understanding the process and that you can, you can organize 138s and

[00:49:26] all different things prior to submitting.

[00:49:28] You're right.

[00:49:29] You can, you can get a faster approval if that's all, all planned.

[00:49:33] What about, um, just talking about a few things because I think, I'm sure you get it.

[00:49:38] Like just people that have done doing their first development, they'll ring up and they'll

[00:49:41] want you to virtually assess the site for them without engaging you, without, uh, understanding

[00:49:48] that actually you're bound by certain, uh, laws and regulations too in your industry.

[00:49:54] Like just for, I guess because our listeners are, some of them are novice, first time investors,

[00:50:00] a lot of more experienced, a lot just lean on, uh, planners and design, their design teams.

[00:50:06] But just for people out there, are there some areas that you just, you just can't go into

[00:50:11] in terms of, um, basically advising or, or, or, or giving, um, knowledge without being

[00:50:19] engaged?

[00:50:20] Like I know we've, we've had chats about it before.

[00:50:22] Are there some things just to help educate listeners out there from a certified point of

[00:50:27] view?

[00:50:27] We can't be involved in the design or give you design advice.

[00:50:30] Yeah.

[00:50:31] Um, you kind of have to look at it as if, um, I use this analogy that we're like a school

[00:50:40] teacher and it's an assignment for you and you're submitting the assignment to me and

[00:50:45] then I'm marking it.

[00:50:47] Yes.

[00:50:47] And you need to get a hundred percent in this, in this assignment.

[00:50:50] Um, but I can't assist you with the right answers.

[00:50:54] Yeah.

[00:50:54] You need to present it to me.

[00:50:55] I can't be involved in the design.

[00:50:57] Yeah.

[00:50:57] Um, uh, but I can, I can give general advice, um, on, on certain aspects.

[00:51:04] Yeah.

[00:51:04] Um, but, uh, you know, in saying that, um, we, we have so many projects where, uh, we, we

[00:51:11] kind of need to be engaged, um, so that we can, we can start that process because you

[00:51:16] might ask one question about a certain aspect of the development.

[00:51:21] Um, and then you think, great, you know, I can get that to comply.

[00:51:25] Um, but because as, as I said earlier, at the start of our conversation, there's potentially

[00:51:34] over a hundred different checks.

[00:51:36] Yeah.

[00:51:36] Uh, and, and just looking at a design, I can't see all of those.

[00:51:41] It takes time and diligence.

[00:51:43] Yeah.

[00:51:43] Um, to go each through each one of those.

[00:51:46] Yep.

[00:51:46] And it might be a small thing, um, that I get to that you can't just see from looking

[00:51:52] at the plans or elevations.

[00:51:54] It takes that whole process to identify.

[00:51:58] Yeah.

[00:51:58] Um, a small non-compliance.

[00:52:00] Yep.

[00:52:00] Um, so yeah, we, we can't be involved in the design.

[00:52:05] Yeah.

[00:52:05] Um, so it's better to engage us straight away.

[00:52:08] Yep.

[00:52:08] Cause then we can do the assessment and then from that assessment, then you can make your

[00:52:13] adjustments.

[00:52:14] Yeah.

[00:52:15] Yeah.

[00:52:15] And in terms of engagement, like, can you be, when can you get engaged in a CDC project?

[00:52:23] Can you get engaged right at the end of the process just before it gets approved or is

[00:52:28] it better to get engaged earlier, earlier, earlier in the piece?

[00:52:32] Yeah.

[00:52:32] Well, getting engaged at the end, if you're confident that you have it in order, like

[00:52:38] we were discussing before, um, that can make the process really, really quick from the

[00:52:43] certification perspective.

[00:52:44] But if you, you need us there to, uh, to check the design, then, then I'd suggest that once

[00:52:52] the architectural plans, um, you have a draft copy, uh, that you engage us.

[00:52:58] Early in the piece.

[00:52:59] Yeah.

[00:53:00] To assess them from, from the architectural plans, um, completion stage or draft stage.

[00:53:07] Yep.

[00:53:07] It's also important at that point and the initial stages, and probably even before you

[00:53:13] start designing that you're checking the planning certificate.

[00:53:18] Yes.

[00:53:18] Um, the title search, which on it may have, uh, an 88B instrument with restrictions or covenants.

[00:53:28] Yes.

[00:53:28] And then older homes and, uh, buildings could have separate positive confidence.

[00:53:33] Yep.

[00:53:33] That can go back over a hundred years.

[00:53:35] Yeah.

[00:53:36] That.

[00:53:36] That can be still relevant.

[00:53:37] Still relevant, still legal.

[00:53:38] Yep.

[00:53:39] Um, so you need to check all those things early on.

[00:53:42] Yep.

[00:53:42] Um, I've had projects, um, where, you know, they've had everything and I've requested,

[00:53:51] um, the planning certificate.

[00:53:52] I need that to complete the assessment, the 88B instrument or a positive covenant.

[00:53:56] And once I've got those, um, the project can't go ahead.

[00:54:01] Yeah.

[00:54:01] Yeah.

[00:54:01] And they've already got a design.

[00:54:03] Yep.

[00:54:03] Um, so it's not, uh, be all and end all in those situations.

[00:54:08] You can always get back to DA.

[00:54:09] Yeah.

[00:54:10] Um, so there's always another avenue or pathway.

[00:54:13] Yep.

[00:54:14] Um, but that means you'll have to adjust your design and.

[00:54:18] Yeah.

[00:54:18] Yeah.

[00:54:19] It's a, it's a, uh, it's a headache.

[00:54:21] You definitely don't want, you want to try and avoid.

[00:54:24] And I think that's where it's so key, isn't it?

[00:54:26] To get those pieces prior to, ideally prior to buying the site.

[00:54:31] Well, obviously if you buy the site, it's in, it's in the contract of sale.

[00:54:34] Yeah.

[00:54:35] All that information in the, the contract for sale is exactly what we need.

[00:54:39] Yeah.

[00:54:40] Uh, so if you're at that point where you're purchasing a property, you can check all that

[00:54:45] stuff.

[00:54:46] Yep.

[00:54:46] Um, or if you've just purchased it.

[00:54:48] Yep.

[00:54:48] Um, times when you need to get updated documentation, if it's, you know, you've had it for every year

[00:54:55] or so.

[00:54:56] Yep.

[00:54:56] Or, um, you know, you've had it for most of your life.

[00:55:00] Yeah.

[00:55:00] Well, you've inherited the property or.

[00:55:02] Yeah.

[00:55:03] You know, we need updates and with recent validity.

[00:55:06] Yeah.

[00:55:07] Of those because planning controls can change and.

[00:55:09] Yep.

[00:55:09] Things can get added to sites.

[00:55:12] Yeah.

[00:55:19] And that, they don't buy the planning certificate or the deposited plan, the 88B, the cert of

[00:55:25] title, like we're talking maybe 300 ish dollars worth of reports.

[00:55:29] But, um, for me, that's the most, some of the most important information that you need

[00:55:35] from the start, uh, because it can really determine the pathway, whether you're going

[00:55:39] DA, CDC, or sometimes if it's a covenant, you may be able to get it lifted.

[00:55:44] If you've got, uh, uh, solicitor that's able to do that, not always, but, and it can be

[00:55:49] a lengthy process.

[00:55:50] So I've seen it sometimes it's a quick process, but I've seen sometimes you can't do it.

[00:55:55] Um, but the beauty of having that documentation at the start is that you can ideally do that

[00:56:00] investigation before you've spent any money on engaging planners, designers, certifiers,

[00:56:06] doing a lot of that yourself.

[00:56:08] And I think it's educating people out there to look, do that part yourself, still have

[00:56:13] your team, that's important.

[00:56:15] Have your team, whether it be certifier, designer, but also a good solicitor too, that, that

[00:56:20] understands covenants and restrictions and as well, which a good solicitor doing their

[00:56:25] job should be advising that you on that.

[00:56:28] But I'm amazed the amount that don't.

[00:56:30] Yeah.

[00:56:30] And then, and then you can know, can I do it?

[00:56:33] And which way can I do it?

[00:56:35] Yeah.

[00:56:36] Um, is it DA or CDC?

[00:56:37] And then, then you can move on from there.

[00:56:40] Yeah.

[00:56:41] That's brilliant.

[00:56:42] Well, I think, I feel like we've only just scratched the surface of, um, CDC and certification.

[00:56:48] Um, maybe we can get you into talk about CC at some point.

[00:56:52] There's so many other different things, but look, I think, um, I can only speak for myself,

[00:56:57] but I, every time I talk to you, I get, I learn more and more and understand more and

[00:57:01] more about, uh, this great thing called the, the low rise diversity code.

[00:57:06] And I'm sure those listening have got a lot of value out of it.

[00:57:09] But do you want to just give us a bit of, uh, just an idea of how people can reach out?

[00:57:13] Because I think reality is people are doing projects.

[00:57:16] Uh, I talk a lot about having a dream team and I think a certifier, a good certifier is

[00:57:20] someone you, you, you need to get.

[00:57:23] And, um, I think gone are the days.

[00:57:31] Um, I think, um, I think, um, I think, um, I've just found you to be that, like someone

[00:57:39] who's really, um, good at what you do.

[00:57:42] You've grown your team.

[00:57:43] Uh, you know, you're very thorough.

[00:57:45] So how do people reach out to you?

[00:57:47] What's the best way for people listening to get in touch?

[00:57:49] And if they want to do a project or engage, engage, you can just check the website, uh,

[00:57:55] sandersco.com.au.

[00:57:57] Uh, on there, there's, um, two emails.

[00:57:59] You can, um, access, um, myself, uh, through info at sandersco.com.au or my admin team is

[00:58:07] admin at sandersco.com.au.

[00:58:09] Um, if you're an architect or a developer and you, you're looking at, um, a project, um,

[00:58:17] we can give you a rundown of our expectations and our requirements, uh, from building code

[00:58:23] perspective and, uh, from planning perspective, what we expect and need on an architectural

[00:58:28] plans from a base standpoint before we even do an assessment.

[00:58:31] Yeah.

[00:58:32] Um, I've done that recently with, with an architect.

[00:58:34] Um, so I gave them a rundown of what my expectations are.

[00:58:39] Yep.

[00:58:39] So that that way when they're designing, uh, they can meet my expectations so that I can,

[00:58:46] uh, you know, assess it easier and, and approve it quicker.

[00:58:49] Yeah.

[00:58:49] Um, so yeah, if you want to get engaged, um, uh, to start looking at projects and, and,

[00:58:57] and see our process and be happy to discuss.

[00:59:00] Very good.

[00:59:01] Well, it's been good to have you on, mate.

[00:59:03] Thank you.

[00:59:03] Heaps of insight.

[00:59:04] Now, look, thanks for tuning in.

[00:59:06] Um, I'm sure this was insightful.

[00:59:08] Look, if you really enjoyed that episode, I want to encourage you to reach out to Blake

[00:59:12] and his team.

[00:59:12] Uh, but also feel free to share, uh, this episode, share it around with colleagues,

[00:59:17] with friends, with family, and don't forget to like, and subscribe to the channel.

[00:59:22] Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.