Mastering Development Costs with Quoc Duong from Duo Tax

[00:00:00] As investors and developers, we see the world differently. This podcast uncovers the untold truths of what it really takes to become a multi-million dollar residential developer. On Nathan Battishall, let's get to work. Welcome to the Residential Developer Podcast. I'm the host of this show. My name is Nathan

[00:00:24] Battishall and I'm really privileged today to have a special guest on with us, Quoc Duong. Welcome to the show, mate. Thank you so much, Nathan. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:33] Yeah, good to have you. And for those who don't know, Quoc is the managing director of formerly Duo Tax but now called Duo Group. And we're going to be talking about all things quantity surveying today. So it's so good to have you on the show, mate.

[00:00:48] Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And I guess what really led me to first and foremost, Quoc and his team have been our quantity surveyors for a while now, a couple of years. And they do such an incredible job.

[00:01:01] And I thought we're in such a climate really since COVID. It's been a really tricky climate around construction and all of our clients are investors and developers. And the amount of conversations I have with people just around the uncertainty around build costs,

[00:01:17] around estimating around budget blowouts. You know, some of our clients are builders but a lot of them aren't. So I guess I'd just love to have a really good conversation with you. Yeah, well, it's been like that since COVID hasn't it? It's everything's COVID,

[00:01:30] you know, your material prices have gone up, your labor costs have gone up. It's crazy. And everyone was sort of waiting for it to come come down slowly but hasn't really gone down. Has it? It's sort of just held, held, held, held.

[00:01:42] Yeah, it's funny isn't it? Like I get some people say to me, oh, look, I'll start, I'm going to start the project when the costs go down. And I'm like, this is the new normal now. Yeah, it's not going. It's not going down.

[00:01:52] Like this is that's my thoughts. This is the new norm. Yeah, well, I had a client in, where was it? It was out West near Leppington area building a warehouse and just as just when COVID happened, he said that he wanted to

[00:02:09] wait a little while until the material prices would come down and the labor costs would come down. Two years later, he was like, I'm just going to start it now. And it's probably gone up by, you know, 40, 50 percent by then. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right.

[00:02:22] Nothing, it is important just to be realistic on that, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. I've found often we're getting people that have that haven't been conserved when they've gone and bought a property or a site to do a development.

[00:02:37] They've based all of their numbers on this unrealistic best case scenario. So what happens then? Everyone feels their pressure. So the builder, the architect, the planner, the QS, like everyone on the team feels their pressure because they have to they're trying to build something for

[00:02:52] a price that's just not achievable. Yeah, the numbers don't stack up. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, well, that's the thing like the it right now, because the margins are so much lower, you've really got got to take the right steps to have a successful

[00:03:11] project in the end of successful development. Development, you need the right team around you. You need the right architects, the right designers, right, you know, quantity surveyors and even like your finance team, marketing team as well. Yeah, 100 percent. Yeah, 100 percent.

[00:03:26] And I think look, yeah, for me, I'm really excited to have you guys on the show because it's just for me, it's having a good QS is so valuable. And I guess just to really kick us off, you know, you guys are really present.

[00:03:40] I find on socials, you're present in the market. A lot of people know about who you are, especially in New South Wales. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about the duo group? I know you guys have a couple of key things you specialize in.

[00:03:55] Just obviously for today, we're talking about quantity surveying, but I think it's still important for our listeners to understand what you guys do around especially tax and tax depreciation, just to give us a bit of an oversight of what your role is

[00:04:08] a little bit about your company. Of course, yes. So my brother and I started the company up about nine years ago. Well, it was my brother's idea to become a quantity survey in the first place. But we started off doing tax depreciation only.

[00:04:22] So he came from a background of civil engineering. I was always in quantity surveying and estimating. And, you know, one day he decided well, he needed he had one he had an investment property and he needed depreciation schedule. And he went off, got his depreciation schedule.

[00:04:37] And he's like, who produces this report? And apparently it was a quantity surveyor in which, you know, something that we could do. And then he decided to start the business. And then I helped him out four or five years on later.

[00:04:50] Well, that was in my mum's garage four or five years on later. We're in an office now. There's about 40, 50 of us in the team. And we decided to open up a traditional quantity surveying that does, you know, your tendering estimates for councils,

[00:05:07] banks, all that kind of stuff for insurance as well. In case if your house burns down, you want to work at how much does it cost to replace this building? We do all that kind of stuff. But yeah, if we start off doing tax depreciation first,

[00:05:20] that's how it all started. And then yeah. And then now we have a property valuation department. We have an insurance arm as well. So yeah, there's about four departments and in the four department is probably 40, 50 staff now. Wow. Yeah. That's that's pretty sick. Yeah, massive, massive.

[00:05:39] And look, I think there's multiple podcast episodes on each of those each of those elements. That's right. Yeah, to get you guys back on to talk about yeah, tax depreciation, because obviously in this game, as investors and property developers, the idea is long term to hold the stock.

[00:05:58] Obviously to hold some stock and as for rental income. So it's so invaluable. Like we talk a lot about it's a whole topic on its own isn't it? Yeah, exactly. We could speak about it for hours. Exactly. Exactly. So it'd be great to get you guys back on

[00:06:14] where they can really drill down into that side of things. Because I think I talk a lot about having a dream team like any successful developer needs to develop a dream team. Like people they can really lean on to provide good sound advice.

[00:06:30] And for me, I don't I've never seen a time more critical than now personally to have a good QS. Yeah. Have you have you found that since COVID that people are valuing that that service a lot more? 100, 110 percent.

[00:06:49] I'll give you even a case study that happens just only yesterday. I had a client that came to me. It was for an initial cost report, which is for bank funding. Yeah, they came to me very early on during the design phase,

[00:07:02] asking me questions, how much is it going to cost for this? How many dollars per square meter? Blah, blah, blah, blah. They didn't they didn't dive deep into, you know, the details, the ambiguities of construction budgeting. Yes. And then skip, you know, four or five, six months later,

[00:07:20] they came to me for the initial cost report for the bank. I said, OK, no problems. I can help you prepare that report. I did the I end up, you know, going through the estimate and it ended up being, you know,

[00:07:31] I think their their their budget was about one point four. And I priced it was close towards two point two mill. Yeah. And and then well, fortunately, they didn't go ahead with the construction because it was a lot higher than they expected.

[00:07:44] But I did recommend them to get the detailed report early on during the cost planning stage, the bill of quantities so we can, you know, cover all the ambiguities of the construction budgeting. You know, you have your, you know, things that people don't really see

[00:08:00] or account your authority fees or your you know, all these things that they don't see. And we as quantity survey experts, when we look at the drawings, we go, OK, well, you need this report. You need this, you need to engage this consultant.

[00:08:13] You haven't got this to you haven't allowed this. So, you know, having us early on, you can really make sure that you cover all aspects and components of your project. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And it's even things like subdivision.

[00:08:28] Like the amount of people that don't factor in subdivision. Like obviously, yes, all of it. All of our listeners generally are either doing developments or they're looking to do a development. So subdivision can add up the cost of the Torrance title versus Australia. Like it can, it can.

[00:08:45] Yeah, that's right. It's differences. There's so many things that can affect your development. Yeah, even one thing I've found, I don't know if you've seen this, but one thing a lot of people are missing like this is new. The state contribution.

[00:08:57] Like you've always obviously got your council contribution, but then now there's this new state contribution that's come in around Sydney or some of the Adelaer. There's a lot of new castles, Central Coast, Wollongong, Shale Harbor, Shalehaven Council. Yeah. Like that extra state contribution too.

[00:09:13] And you know, it adds up like an extra eight grand per dwelling that can add up on your feasibility. That's right. Yeah. And chew into your margin. It's the matter. Yeah. All those small things really, you know, make a massive difference, you know,

[00:09:26] because your margins are so small already now compared to what it was what 10 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So I guess traditionally, traditionally a lot of people, I don't know if you've found this,

[00:09:40] but in the past, a lot of people would try and fudge their numbers. For example, lodging a DA. Yeah. They'd try and bring that QS down to save a little bit of money on DA fees. But yeah, you know, if you're going to get a QS,

[00:09:52] you might as well get an accurate QS, wouldn't you believe? That's right. Well, I agree. Well, typically what happens is with those guys there, when they come to us to prepare the council cost reports, they're always trying to get us to, you know,

[00:10:06] reduce the numbers as far down as possible. And sometimes you're just going to have to be honest with them. You just tell them, well, look, based on the Australian Cost Guide Index, you have this here as a minimum and he is the maximum amount.

[00:10:17] You know what I mean? That's it. And if you go anything under this here, they're going to flag that amount. Yeah. And councils are getting smarter on it. Yeah. Everyone is. They're coming back if the numbers are unrealistic. That's right. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:10:28] If it's a 1.6 million dollar duplex and they put 950 or whatever, like, yeah, you know, most of the time they're going to come back. There's still guys coming to me trying to get me to put on the report, 700, 800 K, to build a duplex.

[00:10:42] Yeah. Tell me who can build one for that price now in this climate? Well, maybe 15 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And look, in terms of because because I think it's important to educate people, I guess, around some of the things a QS is doing

[00:10:58] and different stages of a project. Do you want to just go into a little bit more detail? Like, for example, I'm seeing a lot more banks now meeting that detailed QS. We're also educating a lot more architects, building designers, design professionals around getting a QS early.

[00:11:16] Like at it like once the clients approved, for example, what we quite often do, we encourage clients to do now is let's get a QS early in the piece. Yeah, once they've approved the concept design before we get all the consultants and go too far to make sure

[00:11:32] that we're not getting those stories where it's a one point four budget, but it's come out at two point two. Exactly. Look, if you think about it, if you're building a project that's, you know, three or four or five million dollars at development and you're spending what,

[00:11:46] $10,000 on a QS report, max. Yeah. That's all the reports combined. Typically, it's anywhere between two, three, four thousand. But let's just say $10,000 combined. If you think about it, you're saving yourself so much like the risk of going into development

[00:12:06] with so many things that you don't see yourself, you know what I mean? As a developer or a mum or dad building a duplex. You know, it's the first duplex. Yeah. You spend that little bit of money

[00:12:16] and it saves you a lot of hassle, you know, in the long run. That's it. Well, yeah. I think you nailed it there. Like if you you're spending that money, but if you if you have to go back and redesign everything. That's right. Exactly.

[00:12:27] You can you can times that number by five and that's what you're paying then to for all the rework. Exactly. We offer multiple types of reports, but for the construction estimates, we have three different types of reports.

[00:12:39] We have first our preliminary estimate, which is typically when you're in your concept stage, it's just a trade summary. We'll get we'll look at your concept drawings. We'll go, OK, we'll look do a quick measurement. We'll work it out.

[00:12:51] We'll go, OK, we'll we'll break it down into one line item. Well, excavation was going to be 200 K. You know, concrete in 300 K, whatever it is. Yeah. And then we have our detailed report. Well, typically that's for when you have your structural drawings,

[00:13:08] your architecture, the textual stamp drawings as well. So is that generally would you say that stage is generally when it's prior to lodging for CC or CDC? Yeah. So I'd say post DA or CDC towards CC. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, a lot more documents.

[00:13:27] That's right. And we'll break it down into a few line items. We'll go, OK, how many tonnage of steel reinforcement? How many cubic meters of concrete? Count all the taps or the doors. How many square meters of tiling will specify what type of tiling it is?

[00:13:39] Everything's broken down for you to see. And then then you can go, all right, well, look, I don't want this. OK, this is too expensive. I want this tiling. I want this joinery. You know, I'd like a nicer spec on the taps.

[00:13:52] So it gives you that opportunity to fine tune your project budget. Yeah. Just go down a little bit more. Exactly. That's right. And then later on when you're closer towards construction, we also prepare a report that's a forensic report. And that's typically for builders, I would say.

[00:14:07] So let's just say, you know, let's use painting as an example. OK, how many buckets of paint will break it down to how many buckets of paint? How many brushes? How many rollers? OK, how many labors on site? I.T.P.'s, you know what I mean?

[00:14:21] It really gives the builder the chance to, you know, for example, is your painter, is he going to, is he watering down the paint? You know what I mean? So you know exactly how many buckets of paint per square meter. Yeah, yeah, that's really good.

[00:14:34] Yeah. I love what you said there. And I'd love to go back a step. Talk about the preliminary side. Yeah, this is where I'm seeing just a lot of uncertainty. So a lot, you know, a lot of investors and developers out there,

[00:14:50] you've got a mixture of different people. So people starting with a duplex or a dual occupancy and then obviously working up to multi-dwelling. I guess that's the space I really want to speak into is like your smaller projects are duplex, dual occupancy, townhouse, you know,

[00:15:05] townhouse type developments, multi-dwelling. You know, sometimes I've seen people think, oh, you don't need that. Or their mentality, like, you know, there's a mentality of just that the project guys will do this. But I think, you know, there's a lot of people out there

[00:15:22] wanting to do projects in like infill projects in nicer areas or areas where, you know, that can be quite profitable even just doing a duplex or a dual lock. So it's really just getting people to understand the power and the importance

[00:15:36] of it, of a like a preliminary QS because I just think you nailed something there. And in terms of that, like, are you at that stage? Are you generally obviously done it? You tend not to have a lot of detail like structures or that sort of thing.

[00:15:51] Are you generally trying to make sure you're putting fat and contingency into the QS just to make sure it's you'd rather like a higher estimate rather than a lower estimate? Well, look, we try to get as accurate as possible. We're not trying to go higher or go under.

[00:16:07] We're trying to get as accurate as possible for the client. So for example, you know, if, you know, you'd get this a lot, Nathan. You know, a client comes here and they go, I want to build this duplex

[00:16:18] or this house here and they use quickly, draw up a sketch and they'll send it over to me and they'll ask, hey, can you prepare a cost report? Now, I'll tell them, look at this stage here. You're only going to need a preliminary report.

[00:16:31] Yes. And then when I'm preparing the preliminary report, I'll look at multiple things. OK, I'll ask, I'll look at the site. I'll look at, you know, go through a street view. You know, sometimes in the drawings doesn't specify if you need stumps or not.

[00:16:42] Then I'll tell the client, look, based on this location here, the houses around or whatever it is, every house is on stumps. So you probably need stumps or whatever it is. And then I'll make an allowance for that or anything like that, you know?

[00:16:54] Yeah, yeah. I love that. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And I think. Because I've never seen more, more than like the last probably four or five years, I'm seeing more and more costs blowing out there. But I think I think that for me,

[00:17:11] one of the most vital pieces in dealing with this, especially around developments and investments is QS is getting estimates like those preliminary estimates, because at the end of the day, it's it's a lot cheaper to

[00:17:28] make the tough decision to to shrink a design or to bring it back within budget. Yeah. And to go all that way through and then have to reverse it all again. Yeah. And all it costs you is anywhere between, you know, $600 to $1,000 for a preliminary estimate.

[00:17:45] You know, it will take us a day, two days tops to get through that as well. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Instead of waiting, waiting, waiting, getting to the end, getting all these other consultants involved and then everyone has to scratch

[00:17:57] all their drawings and then go back to the start again. Yeah, that's it. And I think for me, that's a big key thing. Because I think really development is very much about hitting a number and it's reverse engineering. And yeah. So yeah, that's really good.

[00:18:11] So in terms of a preliminary estimate, even just for investors and developers and people that are listening, what what level of detail do you generally need? Like in terms of like just someone who's think who's really felt the pain

[00:18:25] the last couple of years with their projects of not not following that step. And my thoughts are, I'd say it's probably 70% of developers and investors haven't taken that step. My I guess my dream is that 100% of investors would really value getting estimates early in the piece. Yeah.

[00:18:45] What what would let's just talk a duplex, for example, what's a typical level of detail that you would you generally need? Yeah, look, sometimes I even have people coming to me with a set of drawings from real estate. As funny as it is from real estate.com.

[00:19:04] They'll come to me, they'll send me the link. Hey, I want to build this house. How much is it going to cost me to build? And I just I do a quick, you know, cost per square meter and send it off to them.

[00:19:14] But look, the more the more detailed there is, the more accurate the report will be. But look, anything that's, you know, just a standard architectural set of drawings, basic one that would do. Yeah. So generally, like so generally at a preliminary stage, I guess,

[00:19:30] you know, a good accurate set of floor plans, floor plans, elevations, maybe a section. Yeah. And obviously a bit of an idea of what sort of flooring, whether it's concrete, like you said, that's right. I just enjoy it. Yeah. It all helps, doesn't it? That's right.

[00:19:44] Yeah, for sure. And look at the more the more detail you have in the drawings, the more accurate it will be. Sometimes we even offer value engineering services as well. So for example, you know, we had a project where we were building these apartments, they're building these apartments.

[00:19:59] And we have a team that do all the value engineering in duo QS as well. And what happened was there was a project where it was over engineered and projects will always be over engineered for the safety of the consultant.

[00:20:16] That's right. So we'll say, look, instead of a, you know, I can't remember what it was, but, you know, a 300 millimetre slab or whatever, you can use a 250. And then it was, they went back and forth. And in the end, you know, they shaved off, you know,

[00:20:28] a lot of money on their project there. That's brilliant. Yeah. And we're talking about close to like, I think it was close to 10 percent on the development. Wow. Yeah. Which is a huge saving. Yeah. So you guys can offer that type of service where essentially

[00:20:43] a developer or an investor can bring their documentation to you and you can really value engineer and look at areas where that's right. I mean, overcooked or. Yeah. Well, look, it's not. It hasn't always been our bread and butter, but there was a it's it's

[00:20:56] we've had clients that we've been helping over the years on their developments and they've came to us and they've asked for some advice. And that's how it all started to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is massive because, you know, sometimes shaving 30 or 40 K offer

[00:21:12] duplexes to difference between hitting a number that makes it profitable and not. Yeah. And that's right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. No, that's brilliant. Yeah. Look in and I guess just digging a little bit more into that preliminary side of things.

[00:21:28] A lot of a lot of people in the industry talk about different specs of build and I thought maybe you could speak into that because obviously different areas require different spec. Yeah. There's areas you can go luxury.

[00:21:43] In a development, there's areas where you need you can go maybe just a nice, like higher quality spec in these areas. You just got to go mid spec. But then there's areas which I a lot of us try to avoid, but there are

[00:21:54] you can still make money in those areas. Then you've got the areas where you just got to go complete project spec. Yeah, that's right. I guess from your side of the fence, are you able to speak into the different specs that when people talk about a different spec,

[00:22:08] are you able to just, I guess educate people around what that what that means? Like in terms of like a spec of a build. Yeah, of course. Like I think it's it really depends on your position. If you're if you're building as a homeowner

[00:22:26] as a person that's going to live in the property, the house, then it's a whole different perspective than a investor, right? Someone that's going to rent it out or wants to flip the house or sometimes even if you flip the house, you want to

[00:22:38] and you're building at a higher spec, you can make, you know, you can sell it for more. But it really depends on the position. If you're if you're going to rent it out or you're actually going to live in it.

[00:22:47] Yeah, let's just say out of I've got lots of clients that build, you know, small houses towards the Oshel area. They build typically low end projects. Spec they don't option anything in their house. They get their own mates that do the air cons,

[00:23:08] the concreting and the electricals themselves, you know, for a lot cheaper, you know, that's out West. They do that they build at a very lower spec. And that would be more, would that be more? I guess you'd say the volume type builder volume type builders.

[00:23:25] That's right. You don't want to over capitalise on those kind of properties there. You know, if you're moving into towards, you know, in the West suburbs where they're doing, you know, duplex, duplexes there, typically you see full brick, you know, suspended slab.

[00:23:41] Whereas, you know, in an area like, you know, Cairnley Heights Cabra Matter, it's typically, you know, a suspended timber flooring system. Yeah, just lightweight. Brick veneer. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the case. And I really just knowing the area. You have to know the area. That's right.

[00:23:59] You do have to do your research. You have to understand the area. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I have had that where clients have come to us and from a particular area. Yeah. I remember we had a client from the

[00:24:11] just like that, a particular area, like in Bankstown Council area where pretty much it's expected to have like suspended slab. Yeah. Everyone wants suspended slab. But then they wanted to do a project in like, in a part of Wollongong.

[00:24:24] But, you know, it's not expected there to have suspended like slab. So they were going to do that. But I just was able to say to them, hey, like you could do it, but the reality is that the market doesn't need it.

[00:24:37] That's right. And you're only going to over capitalise on your project. Exactly. Where are most of your projects based, Nathan? Look, so we've got we've got offices in the South Coast, New South Wales, at Calama, office in Sydney and office in New South Wales.

[00:24:51] I know I did a few for you out that way. Yeah. So we sort of cover that whole East Coast. East Coast. Yeah. Australia really, anywhere, New South Wales, really, at the moment, we're only in New South Wales. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:01] But it's interesting like you can, but you can, you can even just go from one suburb to the next. Can't you really in the spec of what the market expects? It changes. It's completely different. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess when you're so when you're doing,

[00:25:17] I guess the reason I ask about the different specs of build, obviously that's something that the developer and investor needs to do their own education and research on. But I guess in terms, it's pretty important for you to know

[00:25:33] that though, isn't it when when you're doing that preliminary estimate? Yeah. I guess it's important to know what level of spec. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. We definitely do need to know what is this going to be a double brick?

[00:25:46] Is this going to be a brick veneer? Are you going to go lightweight construction? Are you going to go suspended slab? Yeah. And even the the level of in the finishes as well. Yeah. Yeah. So when you look at the specs

[00:26:00] and I'm sort of honing in on this because I like we sort of we deal with potentially couple of hundred investors and developers per year. So I hear a lot of these same conversations. Yeah. A lot of people often don't

[00:26:16] don't know what the difference is between the specs. Like are you? Yeah. Are you able to just give us a little just your thoughts around like what pushes something into the like how do you when you

[00:26:27] when you look at the different specs, how many specs do you tend to look at it through the lens of what pushes it sort of into those into those categories? Yeah, of course. Like if you're talking about project home level developments, you know, you're talking about sub 2K.

[00:26:43] So anything that's below two thousand dollars per square meter. Anything that's a medium build looking around the two and a half. Yep. And then your high end, obviously, you know, you're going. You know, four or five thousand dollars per square meter plus.

[00:26:58] And then, you know, but then at high end, sometimes I have clients coming to me and they're saying, oh, I want to build something that's a high end finish. Can you give me a cost per square meter on this house here?

[00:27:09] And then I also have to ask them what area you're building in. Then I have to do my research. Is it going to be in Volklux or you're building in, you know, for example, Balmain, you know, this even though

[00:27:18] they're both high end ones out, you know, eight thousand dollars per square meter and the other ones out, you know, twelve thousand dollars per square meter. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Every area is so specific. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah.

[00:27:31] And I guess that's probably a tricky part, too, because I find a lot of builders struggle because the client wants, oh, what's the square meter rate? Yeah. But it's not just about the square meter rate. Is it like a lot of people say, oh,

[00:27:44] we need to build this for three thousand square meter or three and a half or whatever the number is. It's it's deeper than just the square meter rate. That's right. Definitely. Definitely. Even if you're building like a project home these days,

[00:27:59] if you look at the cost per square meter on a project home, I think they're building a four bedroom, two bathroom. That's, you know, I think one hundred and fifty square meters for, you know, two hundred and fifty K out west in

[00:28:12] in those subdivision areas like Leppington, Oshel. Yeah. If you go to the Australian Cost Index, there's nothing that nothing that hits anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And yeah, so it's it's it really depends on the area and it

[00:28:26] depends on the the company that you're building through as well. Yeah. The reason why they can build for so cheap is because they're building hundreds of homes in an area, you know, all the trucks are on site or this or their all their laborers

[00:28:36] are on the same side, you know, all the project managers are managing, you know, 10 houses down the street as well at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. And it's tricky, too, isn't it? Because I have had to educate a lot of

[00:28:48] investors in various things because quite often they'll see you'll see an ad on Instagram or Facebook where I saw that ad that said you could build this five bedroom Geoplex for eight hundred grand. But, you know, like that's what they're advertising it for. That's right. Yeah.

[00:29:06] By the by the time you add all of the upgrades and all the extra costs, all the all the things that haven't been factored in or in the fine print, not including site costs and all the different things.

[00:29:16] I think they exclude things like, you know, your air conditioning, your concrete into around the house, your driveways not even included as well, electrical. So your lights, light fittings, I'm pretty sure that's a that's an option as well. Yes. Yeah. And the variations are expensive aren't they?

[00:29:33] That's right. Quite often once you even like a light fitting a downlight variation is expensive. Exactly. And then even like your then when you get to your plant equipment items like your ovens cooktops, they're all the basic ones that they start you off on.

[00:29:47] You know, yeah, no, I'm once. That's right. Everyone ends up option upgrading them unless you're an investor. Yeah. And you want it's you're going to rent it out. You end up just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. And then you got things like peering or different

[00:30:02] site costs that can and can blow out variations. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And the variations are generally not the going like the going rate. Yeah. If the variations always inflated because obviously that's where that's right. That's where that I guess that market makes their margin.

[00:30:18] Isn't it? That's right. Running on lower margins. Would I would that be right? Exactly. They're running on lower margins and they're building in volume. But as soon as they hit you with a variation, they can make the money. They're the money on that very easily. Yeah.

[00:30:31] Yeah. And look, I guess a lot of a lot of the listeners we're trying to educate really it's a lot of infill people wanting to do, I guess, nicer projects. Yeah. That can be quite that are very profitable. And so I guess it's, you know,

[00:30:48] it's trying to get people to understand that, hey, you know, that that project market or the low spec market doesn't work in a lot of infill areas. So it's sort of educating people around that mid spec or that, you know, that nicer spec.

[00:31:03] Yeah. Type of type of project. I get with the preliminary reports, like you mentioned before, getting that early on in your project is very beneficial. It really helps you cut out so many like ambiguities, you know, things that you're not unforeseen circumstances that can occur later on

[00:31:23] in the project as well. You can sort of like, you know, sometimes I get a set of drawings from clients and they go, OK, these are the specifications. It's going to be a double brick suspended concrete slab. And then you look at the area as a quantity survey.

[00:31:41] They're asking for a preliminary report. You sort of have to make a judgment on your make judgment on yourself, so yourself to determine, you know, what the level of finishes are going to be on the interior. So for example, you you tap your doors, your lights,

[00:31:56] all that kind of stuff. Now, we have to sort of make that guesstimate ourselves there because we don't have the specifications at that point. You know, and then later on, you know, you can chop and change those items there at a detail cost report level. Yes. Yeah.

[00:32:15] I love that. So when you're looking at that, are you generally just doing a little bit of a high level of research into that area? So, yeah, like you said, if it's if it's in volcluse, well, straight away, you know, it's not going to be like

[00:32:30] six thousand dollars. Yeah. Six thousand dollars per squirmia. That's going to be typically anywhere eight, nine, ten K plus. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So for me, that that it's just so vital.

[00:32:46] I've just never seen it so vital to get that preliminary estimate at that point. Do you what are some of the things? What are some of the areas the last couple of years that you're seeing people blowing out their budget like is that let's just talk

[00:33:02] duplexes in, you know, sort of mid spec, high spec type areas like we're talking like, you know, three thousand, three and a half, four, four and a half thousand square meter type areas. Yeah. What are some key areas where you're finding that people just haven't

[00:33:19] they haven't factored in? Yeah. Into their their costing where they're blowing out a bit. Yeah. I think a lot of it has to do with a lot of your fees and your your local authority fees, all that kind of stuff. People don't take that into account.

[00:33:32] Now, as a quantity surveyor, we look at a set of drawings. We go, OK, well, you know, there's for example, you know, we look at the site, it's this all the as is a simple one, but there's all these trees on the site.

[00:33:49] You know, have you made an allowance without the tree removal costs? And a lot of the times there, you know, people don't actually account for that yet. You know, funny as funny as it is, they don't think about these things.

[00:34:01] All these small little costs, these items here that are hidden. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. So that's sort of really going into that feasibility stage before they bought the site. And that's right. And I do those things. Exactly. And I think the most important thing as a developer

[00:34:15] is that you need the right team around you. And like you said before, having that dream team, you know, having a architect that you can trust, you know, having that quantity survey you can trust your or your or your consultants, you know, certifiers, yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:28] Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. And do you guys ever get involved in anything from a pre selecting a site perspective? Like where where a developer might say, look, obviously they might have a town planner and architect as well involved in the designer involved in the conversation.

[00:34:47] But do you guys ever sort of get anyone come to you at that stage and say, hey, is there anything in this site that you think is going to sort of go above the usual costings, for example, excavation or like you said, trees.

[00:35:03] Yeah. Yeah. Tree removal and extra things like is that something you guys do? Yeah, there's generally not. There's there's a lot of things that yeah, a lot of clients they come to us at the preliminary level, state preliminary cost reports.

[00:35:16] They do even earlier than that where they present to us a project and they ask us, you know, how much do you think this is going to cost? And I'll tell them, look, based on, you know, the floor area

[00:35:27] that you're suggesting it's going to cost you X dollars per square meter. So let's just say five million. But there's a lot of things that you haven't accounted for yet. So for example, site access. Site access is a massive thing.

[00:35:39] You know, that could that could make your project blow out of budget very easily as well. And then so do you want to just that's a really good point. Yeah, because I've seen that before where people haven't factored at that.

[00:35:50] Can you give us a bit of an idea what some scenarios like what? Yeah, like what what we look what are we looking for? Yes, at a feasibility point. Yes. So for example, like this building here, it's based in basically the center of North North Sydney.

[00:36:05] And let's just say if they wanted to knock this building down or do do some kind of refurb, whatever it is, are going to be able to fit a truck through here. You're not going to be able to do that. So you have to find alternative solutions.

[00:36:17] And a lot of it's going to be like even if it has to come down to, you know, how many how many guys will borrows? Buckets, you know, carrying the the the access from on site out to the street, dump onto the truck.

[00:36:33] You know, all those costs there that could blow out of budget very easily. You know, yeah. I'm guessing traffic control and things can be a killer too. That's right. You've got to shut down the street. So I guess if someone's looking for at a development site,

[00:36:45] the potential of a development site, essentially they can engage a QS to pay them a fee to actually have a high level look and say, is there any anomalies above and beyond the usual that we think we should factor in here?

[00:36:59] Yeah. That's something that of course, yeah, definitely. A good QS is able to speak into. We had a project recently where it was a boarding house towards the Liverpool area. And one of the the the the builder, the building came up to us and he asked us,

[00:37:17] you know, can you price this project up from? So we did. We priced everything up. It was at a very early preliminary stage. Yeah. And I also raised some concerns like, you know, site access access was one and this boarding house was actually. Sort of just like

[00:37:38] right next to the river. So what happened was the architects in the design, they were they drew the the the boundary. So the fencing right up against the boundary of the river. Yeah. You know, and that that part there was I think part of Sydney water.

[00:37:57] So you know, you have to get consent from them as well. You know, and that's going to cause problems as well. So there was a problem. Yeah. And there's those problems in the actual design there. So we suggested that you're going to have to make some changes here

[00:38:07] because you're actually not going to be building up to this point here. Yes. You know, your boundary is actually probably two metres behind that. Yeah. So but and that I guess that's that goes back to really

[00:38:18] if you're able to speak into that that project at a preliminary stage. Yeah. You can address that then the architect or the designer can then that's looked to redesign it a little bit more, which is going to obviously going to save cost going to save time.

[00:38:34] Exactly. To deal with Sydney water. Yeah. Rather than having to do a thought like a redesign with council. Well, in the end, I don't think the builder even took the took on the job anymore anymore because he was just thinking

[00:38:48] this is what no one else wanted to take it on. He came basically came to me lucky. He came to me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess the real lesson in that if you are is the power of actually if you if you'd been involved in that project

[00:39:03] with the architect early in the piece, you would have picked that up and just the architect could have actually changed the design. That's right. How to build it that would want to build it. Yeah, that's right. Exactly. Yeah, that's great.

[00:39:13] Yeah. And in terms of have you got any insights just from the last few years of some things I guess you can give some tips you can give developers in regards to you know, engagement, like involvement, like what are some tips

[00:39:34] and some advantages of of I guess your engagement at those different stages? Like what it let's just speak Gplex townhouse, yeah, all the residential developments like what it. Yeah. What are some thoughts? I think one of the. Yeah, I think one of the biggest problems I've seen in

[00:39:53] specifically owner builders, owner builders, they go and get funding from the banks. And the bank approved their loan. What they don't realize is that yes, the bank has approved your loan, but doesn't mean that they will give you the money upfront to build your project.

[00:40:10] So what happens is you actually need to have that money already. You need to start doing the works once you're ready to lodge an invoice. Let's just say you've pulled this lab, then you have to get the quantity survey out on site and assess.

[00:40:25] Yes, the slab has been poured. Then the bank will pay you for that one hundred K for that slab. But typically what people expect is that the bank will then give the money on deposits or whatever it is to build their project.

[00:40:39] You know, you sort of need to have that money already up front for the first stage and then the bank pays you out for that first part. Then it's sort of just to help you with your cash flow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:50] Yeah, and that's a common one, isn't it? Then all of a sudden, if that's been something that's been neglected or hasn't been addressed, yeah, all of a sudden you've got to stress to add investor. That's right. Yeah. And the project falls. The project falls overall.

[00:41:02] Yeah. And sometimes I wonder if that's why we're seeing a lot of sites being sold with the DA or a CTC approval on them purely because someone couldn't get the funding. Yeah, that's right. And generally what happens is to be able to get funding as well.

[00:41:15] Your project does need to be within five percent difference of. So the so what happens is when you go and get a construction loan, the bank will say, OK, well, you need a quantity survey to verify and substantiate the cost of construction.

[00:41:29] Yes. So let's just say your contract is a million dollars. Yeah. OK, so I then get all your architectural drawings or get all your structural drawings imported into my software. And then I start crunching numbers, you know, measuring everything up. Yep.

[00:41:46] Ultimately, the general rule of thumb is my cost estimate needs to be within five percent of the construction cost. If I'm outside that five percent, let's just say I see at one point five mill, yes, the banks going to raise red flags, going to say, OK, no,

[00:41:59] we're not funding this project. The QS is saying it's too much. It's too high or it's too low, whatever it is. The general rule of thumb is we need to be within five percent difference. Yeah. That's not that's something that not a lot of people understand.

[00:42:11] They think, you know, the QS is going to be here. They're going to say, all right, my project is a million dollars. The QS is going to say it's a million dollars. That's not how it works. We need to be able to come up with a realistic figure.

[00:42:21] We will always want to help the client as best we can. Yeah. But at the same time, we need to be able to protect their investment, their money. What if they go out and they end up building the project?

[00:42:32] They spend a million dollars and they're only, you know, two thirds of the way that finish, you know, no one wins. No one wins. That's right. Yeah. That's it. And I guess in terms of your, in terms of your, your company and your business and your profession,

[00:42:48] really like working with investors and developers, you want to you want a client you can work with for life. That's right. Exactly. I'm not. Yeah, we're not here to give you guys a hard time. Yeah, we're trying to protect your investment. Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

[00:43:01] And I always say, like, you know, our jobs to make sure our clients create a successful project, but also profitable project. That's right. Exactly. Yeah. And that's where good QS, I think. Yeah. It's terrific. Because for me, sometimes I find in the industry,

[00:43:18] there's this sort of using a QS to tick a box. And I think we need to debunk that. I think we need to get away from that. Yes, you've got to tick a box for the banks. You've got to tick a box for a QS for counsel.

[00:43:30] But I think it's it's got to be about creating estimates so that the project is well managed and it's it's well documented to ensure that it is financial and that it is sustainable and that it's that the development is feasible. Yeah, that's right. What are your thoughts?

[00:43:47] Yeah, it's what that's right. Everyone thinks that QS is here just to tick boxes to you know, yeah. And then get the you know, that's it. But like you've been saying or meeting is that so like you've been saying, it's important to get the QS

[00:44:07] very early on in the stage, you know, not right after the end when you're asking them to tick the boxes. If you get them engaged early on in the project in the preliminary stage, you can make those adjustments.

[00:44:17] You know, and then you move on to the detailed report. Yeah, once you your forensic report, then you get go to whatever it is to the bank, you'll be ready. You know, you know exactly how much it's going to cost to build.

[00:44:28] Yeah. And at that point there, we're ready to tick all the boxes. Yeah, I love it. That's brilliant. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. And let's just one thing I find that blows budgets out often, there's site costs. There's obviously the reality is there's a lot of areas where

[00:44:46] you're dealing with sloping sites you're dealing with. Constraints. I guess that's you finding often that's where people have really blown blown out their costs. They haven't factored in the excavation or they haven't factored in

[00:45:02] the fact that it's not just the cutting of the side of the edge beams. So yeah, yeah, what are you? Some what is just around some of those key, key things where people don't factor in. They literally just work off three, three and a half thousand

[00:45:16] or three thousand or four thousand square meter. They haven't factored in those key elements. That's a that is a massive problem as well. Yeah, so. Yeah, a lot of the time times, you know, they find a site, they get the architect to draw on it

[00:45:32] and then they come to us and it ends up being a lot more expensive than they expect is because of this, you know, your your sites on a slope, you know, site accessibility, all these kind of things that they do factor in. That's right. Yeah, that's it.

[00:45:46] I guess you've got the type of. Earth you excavating, isn't that's right? I've got a development at the moment. I'm kicking off in a year or two that is on blue, blue metal, bluestone. Yeah, that's another level. That's right.

[00:46:00] But luckily we knew that before we got the site. We factored. It's another massive problem is that it is the below ground excavation, you know, yeah, yeah. And it can be tricky. I guess kind of if someone's looking, they're purely looking for their next development. So like, yeah.

[00:46:15] Without getting Geotech and getting some of that data, it is tricky to tell, isn't it? But I guess are you, I guess are you encouraging developers and investors to probably, you know, really go off the worst case rather than the best case?

[00:46:30] Well, look, look, it depends because ultimately, ultimately my job here is to estimate not guesstimate. Yeah. And if if I'm put into a position where I have to guesstimate, then yes, I will make an allowance for the worst possible scenario. You're going to be hitting rock.

[00:46:48] And look, I'm not going to get silly with it. If you're if it's in a specific area, then there's no no rock if you're just building like a basic cookie cutter house and then I won't make that kind of allowance. But, you know, that's right.

[00:47:02] My job here is to estimate not a guesstimate. Yeah. And if I do have to guesstimate, then yes, I will make an over allowance on some certain things, just in case. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I'm finding I'm seeing a lot of is

[00:47:17] a lot of people wanting to do basements, for example, with duplexes, yeah, which is a great opportunity. It's a great alternative. You can create extra space and there's some really good ways under the CDC, especially you can get quite a large bigger than a standard garage

[00:47:31] size. But I guess a lot of it does come down to locations, areas, some areas I believe you over capitalise in. But what are some of the areas just for people that are looking to do a basement

[00:47:43] in, say, a nicer area where you can justify it from a feasibility perspective? What are some areas that you think what are some of the key areas that really make a basement obviously quite a lot more expensive than, say, you're above ground costs

[00:47:59] that people don't think about sometimes? As in like the cost. Well, look, it's it's, you know, it's the things that are below ground that you don't you don't see, you know, and depends on the site as well.

[00:48:12] If you're digging a basement and, you know, you're in between two buildings, you've got to make sure that there's all your the retaining walls, the structural integrity to hold up those two buildings on either side.

[00:48:25] People don't think about these things and the cost to do that is so significant, you know, because then you have to do things in so much bit so much more detail. It's everything's a lot more fragile, you know, it's

[00:48:36] and it requires a lot more engineering than what you expect, then building a basement in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, that's it. And I guess some areas you got a sheet pile. Yeah, that's right. That people may not have factored in. Yeah.

[00:48:48] And even have you found the excavation cost like not just the excavation, but then where do you take it? Yeah. But the material, but then where do you take it? That can really blow out, can't it? That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Look, I think

[00:49:04] you know, a lot of investors and developers are either individuals, high net worth individuals or individuals or people that want to do projects so they need to get a builder. But also there's a lot of developers out there that are smaller builders. Yeah.

[00:49:19] Do you find working with a smaller builder like a lot of them don't have the time to do detailed, you know, estimates. Are you finding that you're getting a lot more smaller builders wanting to engage your services? Definitely. I think it's small building companies.

[00:49:39] They don't tend to usually have a estimating team. They have all their, you know, their project managers or they have the guys on site or whatever it is. And they don't really have a small team of estimators yet. So a lot of the times the

[00:49:55] the builder would typically do his own estimates. Yeah. And I always encourage them to engage a quantity surveyor or an estimator to do that work for them. That way they can keep, they can focus on site and all that back end paperwork, calculating the cost.

[00:50:12] It takes a lot of time, you know? So I always encourage them to engage someone like myself or another or an estimator to to do that for them that way. Because we have all the resources, we have the software

[00:50:23] to do it. You know, we're not, it's not what it used to be. We're not measuring architectural drawings with a ruler anymore. You know, we're using these softwares that give us a lot of the information. It breaks it down. It makes it a lot easier.

[00:50:34] We can crunch out the work a lot faster as well, you know? Yeah. And I guess for like a smaller developer or someone doing a project a year or one every two years or a couple of projects a year and they're engaging a builder,

[00:50:48] are you are you finding that getting that really good QS then enables them to really cross check the QS against a couple of builders quotes or tenders? Like, have you found that works really well that way? Or? Yes. So what happens is like, sorry. Sorry. He got that.

[00:51:06] He asked that question again. So yeah. So we like a lot of people out there are doing a smaller developers or smaller investors were doing a couple of projects a year. Yeah. Do you think it's important to get to get that QS

[00:51:22] so that they can cross check that against, for example, once that once they get a couple of builders quotes just so they can really see if they are if there's a blowout in a couple of builders, quite like.

[00:51:32] OK, yeah. So as in like the investor or the person the developer wants to. Yeah. Yeah. OK. So what happens is, yeah, typically they'll go to, you know, a few different builders and they'll go, OK, well, one guy saying it's a million and other guys saying it's 1.5.

[00:51:47] The third guy saying it's two million. You know? And then because the price is varied so much that now the developer has no idea what to do in that position, especially if it's a mum or dad, you know, they've they've never been in this position before. Yeah.

[00:52:01] Yeah. But then they said what we do is we prepare our cost estimate. We break or we itemise everything. We make sure we cover everything in our report and our detailed cost report or our forensic report. You know? Yeah. How many taps, how many doors,

[00:52:18] how many cubic metres of concreting and a tiny drop of steel reinforcement. Then we're now we're able to compare apples with apples, you know, this builder here, builder A, he has these exclusions, whereas builder B has included this.

[00:52:32] You know, builder C has allowed for this, this and this here. Yeah. Yeah. Can you nearly. And I'm guessing you can nearly catch out where someone may have actually been really taken for a ride with some cost blowouts. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I think a lot of

[00:52:52] a lot of my clients, mums and dads, particularly they've been in a position where, you know, they're doing an alternate ads on the house and they're getting price quotes from builders that are so low. You know, builder A might be like, you know,

[00:53:08] at, you know, 600K and everyone else is sitting around 1.8, 1.9 mill and they're thinking or 1.5 mill thinking why is builder A so much lower? You know, he's basically made an allowance to, you know, repaint a wall, replace a wall. But they don't realise what's happening behind the wall.

[00:53:27] There's all these things, you know, and then they end up charging a variation once they ship that wall down. You know, we need to do this now. We need to do this. We need to do that. Yeah. That's so true, isn't it?

[00:53:39] And I've even had a live story where a client went with the lowest option. Yeah. But once they added up all the variations, all the missing pieces, all the little upsells, all the little things that weren't within the quote.

[00:53:55] And it was, you know, the tender was very well crafted to protect the builder in the end. They and it was a volume type builder. So they the quality of the bill was probably not what they expected either.

[00:54:08] So in the end, they ended up paying not much less than what a couple of the nicest sort of mid spec builders were actually charging. But their their tender was their quote was actually a lot more upfront. Yeah. Yeah. So that's not always the lowest price.

[00:54:22] I find, yeah, that's right. Yeah. There's a lot of guys out there doing the right thing. But yeah, there are a lot of builders out there that do, you know, tend to come in a bit lower and end up charging variations

[00:54:35] that end up stacking up to be a lot higher than. Yeah. And I guess by having that detailed QS, I guess you can really highlight. Can't you cross check that QS against the quotes that you get? Yeah. Okay. Well, that one's missing.

[00:54:50] Yeah. The council fees or that one's missing. Yeah. All the contributions or it's missing. It's missing. Yeah. Parts of the demolition. Yeah. Can they can people do that? That's that is that the advantage of having a detailed QS? Yeah, that's right.

[00:55:05] Well, look, our job here is not to, you know, catch people out or call them out for doing the wrong thing. But let's just say there's a there's a builder that's coming so much lower. We we can give the client a reason, you know,

[00:55:16] or the reason why he's coming so much lower is because he might not have all the, you know, documents to be able to price whatever's behind this wall, whatever's below ground, you know, whereas the guys that are pricing so much higher,

[00:55:30] they've made an over allowance just in case if this happens, that happens, you know? That's why their contract is a lot higher. So no one's here to say who's right, who's wrong. But I'm basically our job here is to say, yes,

[00:55:43] this is why this one's so much lower. And that one's the reason why that one's so much higher, you know? Yeah. And I think you can you can you can sort of help the builders in a way like we've seen obviously a number of builders

[00:55:56] really not be able to survive this turbulent time the last couple of years. Now, I guess some of those could could dump a lot of its conditions. But sometimes you can look and you can see some of it come

[00:56:06] can come down to maybe if they had a QS helping them as well just so that they're not losing money on a project. They're not they're not sort of doing a project. They're realising and I've seen this where builders are losing 100 K on a project. Yeah.

[00:56:22] You know, that adds up over over time. So having a QS involved from a builder perspective to it just ensures that you can really pick up on some of those things that may be missed. That's right. It's honestly such a harsh market right now.

[00:56:39] The industry is in such a harsh market and it's the margins are so small and the the the margin of error is so small as well. You know, you know, you need to sort of spend more money to be on consultants, the right team

[00:56:55] to be able to avoid, you know, your project from collapsing. You know, definitely, definitely. All right. Do you want to I thought it might be good just to get a bit of a case study on just a project, a successful project

[00:57:08] maybe one that was could have could have really been a disaster. But you're able to really help rescue it early in the piece and see see something successful come out of it. Yeah, of course.

[00:57:20] So I had a client that came to me and needed a just just a cost rough cost guide on on his development. It was a duplex and he I helped him prepare a preliminary cost report and he gave me all the specifications.

[00:57:37] He's going to, you know, use this, this and this. And then I prepared the preliminary report and the cost end up being much higher than what he anticipated. And then he was we're just talking about, you know, he was thinking,

[00:57:52] oh, maybe I should trim down on some of the options like, you know, a lower quality finishing in the finishes. So, you know, your taps, your doors, your your joinery. Plant equipment items as well.

[00:58:10] But we came up with a solution with, you know, we did some value engineering, you know, we said to him, look, instead of using this product here, you should use this product here. You know, it's a lot more cost effective.

[00:58:21] You can save some time on it as well. And then that gave him the opportunity later on at a later stage when he went to tender, sorry, towards the tendering stage. We also prepared the detail or cost report. We itemized everything.

[00:58:37] He was able to, you know, upgrade some of the other options now rather than downgrading from. Yeah. Yeah. So that preliminary cost report stage there was so significant because it just it it allowed him to, you know, sorry. So that preliminary cost report section stage was important

[00:58:59] because it just helped him save so much money. I think it was close towards 10, 15 percent on his project. Yeah. And that's the difference between it being a good project and just a break even project, I guess, isn't it? That's right. Yeah. No, it's brilliant.

[00:59:14] And I think for me, that's that's one of the biggest take homes of this conversation is actually the value of actually getting involvement of a QS early in the piece because anyone doing an investment or a development, you're doing it to obviously generate a profit

[00:59:32] and doing it to create a project that is going to be profitable. And in this volatile market, I just think it's never been more valuable than now to involve that. So yeah. And I think it's it's the hardest part of our job.

[00:59:44] Everyone thinks that a preliminary cost report is a one line item. Yeah. Page report, but compared to a detailed report, you know, at a detailed report, you have all your specifications, you have everything drawn for you on a set of drawings.

[00:59:57] All we have to do now is get a of a click of a button measure everything up. Quantify everything, write everything. It's not easy, but we can it's it's easier because, you know, you can if everything is basically specified for you at that stage, then you just go

[01:00:11] as a quantity, so they go out, you you call the suppliers, you know, you find all the rates for that for those items there. So it's quite easy. But at the preliminary stage, you want to help the client save money, save costs.

[01:00:23] How do you do that with such limited documentation? So then you're you're sort of your experience kicks in, you know, like this is you compare it to other projects you've worked on. You know, you know, this is how you can trim costs down because, you know,

[01:00:38] instead of using this item, this material here or this product here, use this product, you know, that I find that the preliminary stage is always the hardest. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Well, it's been brilliant to have you on. Hopefully it would be good to get you on the week.

[01:00:54] There's so many topics we can cover around this. And, you know, I really appreciate you coming in and being on this podcast in terms of for investors and developers on this podcast, I'm sure off the back of this conversation,

[01:01:09] people are going to value so much those different types of estimates they can get the preliminary, the detailed report, the forensic report and even for builders to be able to really work with them as well. Like how can for people listening and have just seen the value

[01:01:24] in what what you can bring at the duo group? What are some ways people can can find you? And obviously we'll be putting your all of your details within the show notes on socials or that sort of thing as well. But like, how can people? Yeah, of course.

[01:01:38] So yeah, they can find me through my contact details that you will share. Appreciate it, Nathan. Thank you. And look, what we do is a lot of clients call us and we, you know, we give free consultation over the phone, you know,

[01:01:53] how much does it cost for this or what the cost per square meter for or a house duplex or townhouses or apartment is in certain areas. We do all of that free over the phone. Yeah, so if someone's looking for a development side, essentially you guys

[01:02:08] can just provide a little bit of free advice before they go too far into a project. Yeah. And then obviously off the back of that, there's some services, paid services you guys can provide for all the different types of reports. That's right. It doesn't hurt to ask.

[01:02:23] Yeah, it's a free consultation. They can call through any time and we have a team there that are ready to go. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's been good to have you on, Nate. Thank you so much, Nathan. Appreciate it. Wonderful, wonderful.

[01:02:34] And look, I hope you've enjoyed this really insightful conversation. Again, just a reminder, the all the all the details for duo group are going to be within the show notes. But can I encourage you to really digest this conversation

[01:02:50] and really, really ensure that you have a good QS as part of your dream team. It's invaluable. It can save you a lot of money and it can also help you, especially in that preliminary side of things to avoid a disaster early in the piece.

[01:03:08] So I hope you've enjoyed this session again. Find that detail in the show notes. Thanks for listening.