Developer’s Diary: Q&A with Nathan Battishall of Duplex Building Design

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: As investors and developers, we see the world differently.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast on covers the untold truths of what it really takes to become a multi-million dollar

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: residential developer.

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_00]: One Nathan Battishall, let's get to work.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the latest episode of The Residential Developer Podcast on the host, Nathan Battishall

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and today I'm going to do something very different and every couple of months I'm going to jump in

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm going to answer some time really answering some questions that have come through

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to our channel.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I also sent out an email to a large number of investors, developers, mum and dad developers.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Just to get an idea of some questions that they had.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to use this space to really share some insights.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: My knowledge from close to 20 years in this residential development investment space and also just so you can get to know

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_00]: myself as the host of the show.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It's someone who is very heavily entrenched in residential investment and development.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: The first question that came through was what inspired you to firstly get into residential investment

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: development and also what inspired you to start the company Jeep Lake building design.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll probably start with the company Jeep Lake building design first because that did essentially come first in my journey.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Look, I've told a few people this story before but I knew what I wanted to do at the age of 13.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I started high school already knowing what I wanted to do and a lot of people think that's a really good thing.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Now essentially it was but it made high school quite challenging because when I knew what I wanted to do.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I was I found school quite challenging at times because there were so many elements of school where I didn't.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I really struggled with it because if it didn't relate to a career in design architecture design building design development building construction.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: If it didn't relate to those elements I really switched off unless it was sport.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So that made that sort of journey of all the way through high school a little bit tricky at times and I had that continual feedback from teachers just saying that I was easily disrupted or unless I was unless I was engaged in even less it was something interested me.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't engaged but look for me it was great because at that young age I was able to really holding on on my passion.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I used to love going to open homes display centers, I used to love back in the day when you don't see this much now but back in the day my mum used to buy me all the different home design magazines and it was great because you're not only got to see for

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: large you got to see designs, you got to see styling all that sort of thing but I got to see floor plans and I became really passionate about floor plans floor layouts.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So I used to just sleep like buy magazine after magazine after magazine and I dream of creating spaces and designing homes and then I was able to get a drawing board we're talking like the mid to late 1990 so.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I had software wasn't very popular so I started to I started to just like my dad bought me this really a three drawing board with all the lead pencils and the rulers and the squares square sets and all those different bits and pieces and I got books on how to do really good quality tech drawing.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I started taking a school and I just became passionate about drawing floor plans floor layouts different types of designs townhouses luxury homes, jublakes you know I started to in gross and gross myself into.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_00]: into that and it got to the point then when I was sort of 15 or so I was able to do a full day I set a plans like rent like council ready.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So I like by the time I got through school I was already already knew what I wanted to do so because I didn't grow she added myself so heavily into that space that really for me was never a job it was it was a passion because it was a passion for like six.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: seven years before even became a job.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So when I first started to work in that space the building design space I was already so passionate about it I love the idea of development I want to understand more and more of how projects worked how developments worked out.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: properties came together everything from you know the initial land acquisition phase to feasibility then to obviously the planning phase.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_00]: estimation phase, tendering phase project management building construction occupation certificate and then all the way through to obviously a selling stage marketing agents you know all those different moving bits and pieces so I started to really get invested in involved in that anyway.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I started the business 17 years ago.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Initially I started doing every every in any type of design whether that be commercially industrial, new homes, renovations, multi dwelling everything and anything building design but it wasn't till about 10 years ago that I really decided you know what.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I really love the investment development space so I niche down into that space and that's where the birthing of jute play building design came about and the vision very much was to create.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: an extension of all of our investor developer mum and dad investor build a developer clients.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Like an extension of their.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: of their dream or their desire or their company or their structure so that essentially we could just be there to serve to create to help create that those moving pieces and be a resource for.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_00]: people in that game and in that space so because I built up such a strong repertoire of knowledge of learning.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I spent a lot of time educating the self through property development courses all different types of things obviously my own education and qualifications and my own experience it has led me to the point where.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I've probably designed a couple of thousand projects so when you've done that many projects you tend to.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You really get a strong understanding of all the moving parts pre-build and I spent time also working with building companies both volume building custom building development investment base building so I've got to spend a lot of time really getting ahead around construction build ability.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_00]: all that side of as well so it really just set me up.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: You know with that frame of mind so for me the big inspiration behind jute play building design was because I love development so much I love talking development looking at potential spotting potential.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It really enabled me to just fully holding on that space and create a company that was not just a company.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: for the sake of having a company or doing a job it was very much about following a passion.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so passionate about property development investment doing risk especially residential projects which was very much the birthing of this podcast the residential.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I've developed a podcast like the whole birthing of this has been very much around creating a space where we can speak right into the everyday life of a residential investor and developer who's wanting to do projects or is doing projects.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So for me I wanted to create a resource channel.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to create a toolbox and a toolkit for people to be able to weaken, weaken, weaken, tune in, clean knowledge, get understanding and also get confidence because knowledge brings confidence so.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So for me jute play building design.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Working for a design, planning, interior design project management development management point at angle.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Over the last 15 years with investors developers built a developer's mums and dads that obviously fueled a passion in me to want to push into that space of doing my own developments in my own projects.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a good number of years ago now and I played it safe for a long time.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And got to the point where I thought you know what, and I actually got challenged by a really good client of mine who I've been able to work with for a long time.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've been able to help see.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I was, I had the privilege of being able to work with this client for a very long period of time and I've been able to see them generate incredible wealth but also build.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: A really wonderful lifestyle and but in all of it I've seen the way that they were able to.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been able to create people so wonderfully well and they're so loyal and they have been loyal and still loyal like to us and other moving pieces.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just got me thinking and they challenged me one day and said, well, why are you holding back? Why are you doing your own projects you've got the knowledge you've got the education.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You know you could do this as school to if not better than most people because you've got this incredible knowledge and you know I've got this really experienced developer who's leaning on me.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: For advice and he's seeing me as a comfort art seeing me as as a someone who they really trust and rely on when it comes to looking at developments I'd even purchasing what sites based on our advice or my advice.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I spent a lot of time justifying and making excuses as to why why not.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe to afraid to step out to afraid to take risks and all different reasons and we all have reasons why we talk ourselves out of it but you know for me.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It was that pivotal moment where I thought, well, why not and that's when I really started to take that development process serious. So yeah, it's a like a lot of people.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I went and educated myself. I did a whole bunch of courses and there that's the beauty these days. There's so many terrific courses out there for people wanting to do projects and developments.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So when I went and educated myself spent quite a bit of money educating myself doing different courses on property development.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Some where you had mentorship and you had little groups and we got together. And I just consumed as much information as I could. I watched as much as many YouTube's I listened I learned I watched I grew.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously I'd had a lot of my own learning so I was lucky in that regard that I got to clean ideas from really experienced investors and developers.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I got to rub shoulders and people obviously have a big knowledge base of trusted reliable people that I can use as sounding boards as well.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But for me, that's that's what inspired me to kick into that property development journey and probably the biggest inspiration behind it was to realising that.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Like a lot of business people you work 20 30 years not paying yourself any super in the early days because I had just had that work work work mentality.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't have an investor investor investor in terms of property. So the first 10 like 15 or so years of my work life as a business owner I hadn't paid myself super and at the penny dropped and I thought, what am I going to leave for my kids?

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: What am I going to if something happened to me what happened to my wife and my kids and also like what what were retirement look like or what will the future look like in terms of like what legacy can I leave my kids or what.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But not bigger than that like what impact can I make in the world as well like if I can't generate wealth so that that was a big driver behind.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Moving into development myself because for me it's never been about money and for some people it is and that's cool that's fine.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But for me a big driver for me is my wife, my kids and really being able to make a difference in the world.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: You know I want that for me that's one of the drivers and you've got to have a war when it comes to property like if you're why if you don't have a big war you're not going to have something big enough to get you up in the morning and something that's that's going to push you and drive you forward.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Next question though I had I thought was a really good question was what are some of the most common challenges you see developers face.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: During the pre-bealed phase and how do you help them over come these and look we see a lot of challenges.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately a lot of the challenges come as a result of the land acquisition unfortunately I see a lot of people and probably on any given week.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I have to have the difficult conversation with people who've wrongly purchased a site that is full of constraints or a site that can't be developed.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's really it's really disappointing to see and that's one of the for me that's one of the biggest challenges.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I see is where people who have secured a site that is very constrained.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the first and foremost thing is the sort like the site that you're acquiring or the site you're getting really can make or break our project.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I was talking to someone only recently was actually only last week and they were trying to make the numbers work on this particular site and we sat down we looked at a feasibility they had a feasibility.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: They pumped up the numbers on it just to make it look better than what it was.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: The build cost was just at an unrealistic rate and long story short.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately they bought a site that was just way too expensive like there was never going to work for a project they wanted to do a triplex on it.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately because the agent that sold on this property new you could do a development on the site.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, a lot of the development uplift was already in the sale of that property so that the previous vendor obviously gained all the benefit but the site was not developed and because the numbers because they hadn't really run a conservative feasibility and they hadn't really used true proper real numbers as a result.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Then they've got a site that just doesn't stack up.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it may stack up for like a builder developer who can possibly build on a little bit less margin and sometimes you can get away with that but this particular client was just in investor developer who obviously needed to engage a builder for this project so the numbers just didn't stack up and as a result there though it.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Scouring around trying to.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Trying to find builders that could build for a process just not achievable and and one of my questions coming up I'll talk a little bit about this but that's that's one of the biggest challenges of all and and look another one is constraints where people buy sites without doing their original.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what a simple challenge for the residents.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Just little like big things like you know I've seen people come to a special sites with BELF 40 for example bush fires own or flames and.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You can't do more than that you like if you wanted to do a job later even a granny flat.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and especially tower houses multi-dwelling. Like if it's more than about 29, you can't develop the site.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You literally stuck with the site for one dwelling. And I've seen this where people are bought sites

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: running a feasibility on 34 or five six without getting a bushfire consultant to look over a site

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_00]: or to look at is there any other performance solutions? Is there any other ways that you can do

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: flooding is another big one like, but even trees like buying sites with heaps and

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: 80 trees like I've got a client at the moment looking at a site in the south coast.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Littered with gum trees and

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: no this site's littered with gum trees it's going to bite a versatility report which looks reasonably

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: favorable but you're still in the hands of council there's still a huge element of risk and

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone's got their own risk profile but when you've got a developer selling the site

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: they've gone to all the effort to get all these reports and all the sudden they're not developing.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes sometimes circumstances change but you need to offload a site I get that but I think

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: if it was such a good site it was probably probably would have been sold off market

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: all the sudden it's on a market just for me a lot of red flags and some people are happy

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll have deeper pockets than they can buy a headache but the general most general investors

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: developers, months and dads build a developers most of us we want the piece of mine so

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it we don't want to buy that headache and I think a couple of other challenges I find pre-

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: when it comes to projects this is a massive one is designing the product to fit within the

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: budget now this is a really tricky space because like the last couple of years construction costs

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: have obviously chopped and changed thankfully it's steadyed up now there's a lot more consistency

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: when it comes to materials and supply of materials costing of materials without seeing the

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: fluctuation we did post COVID but we're still it's still a tricky space and it's a space where

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00]: as I said a lot of people are paying too much for land where we went through a bit of a boom

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: process went crazy we're seeing it level out a bit but still we're finding a lot of people are

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: factoring in appropriate numbers for for the build but not only that there's an old saying like

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_00]: 70 or 80% of DAs when it comes to the development space don't get built there's a reason why

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: there's so many DAs on the market you look at the amount of agents either selling on market or

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: off market development sites it's crazy like I have the amount of agents that even email

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: email us with I've got this development site have you got any of my be interested

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: it's DA approved or it's see they see approved but the challenge is once something's approved

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: unless a builder like a built for a builder it can be handy because I need an now project

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: but for people like myself and you as residential investors and developers one of the best ways

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: to get an uplift on a site is to get a raw site execute the approval yourself

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: so that you're not paying over for the site and so that it's hitting appropriate margins but look I

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_00]: think one of the big challenges is challenges are that there's a crazy percentage of properties

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: that for developments that get approved and never get built and a couple of big reasons for that

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: is construction it hasn't been designed to fit within budget so whether that mean the design or

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the architects miss the brief whether it means the client hasn't engaged or the client slash design

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: her hasn't worked closely with the builder or with the QS just to just to really make sure that

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: the numbers are sitting at that appropriate place so that's another big factor that can really

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I can halt development but it can also mean that you've then got to get a redesign you've then

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously a quicker process but if it's a DA some DAs could take any way from six months to 12

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: months in Council and all the sudden if that's a really significant change it you may not be able

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: to do the 4.55 DA modification sometimes you can't but sometimes you can't so all the sudden you've

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: just then lost potentially another six months or 12 months and if you've already if you've already

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: settled on that side you can be and you've got a favorite of that debt if you've got a

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: favorite of debt attached to that side all the sudden your holding costs can be through the roof

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and next thing you know you're bleeding interest you're bleeding money before you've even broken

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: ground and every and if you haven't factored in that additional 12 months in your feasibility

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: you start to chew into your contingency and before you know it you start and if you and if you

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: haven't run your feasibility adequately you know before you know it you can start to chew into

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that margin and if you've and if you have pumped up your numbers if you had have made your

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: feasibility look more attractive than what it truly was to satisfy a lender or to satisfy

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: it would it would it's satisfying investor or something like that all the sudden yeah that feasibility

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: is looking a lot uglier and that development's looking a lot riskier and shake here as it goes so

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah look I think that's a big I big one and I think another one this is probably more in regards

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: to multi-dwelling but I think it can revolve around smaller developments too like your locks

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: due places I've seen this where people buy a site thinking they can do two detached dwellings

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: so they run their numbers on it but they have an adequately determined if that's possible

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: having done their due diligence prior securing that sites all the sudden the difference between

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: two detached dwellings or two standalone houses versus and attached to a lingerie duplex

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: from a re-sar point of view that can be massive so all the sudden what might have been it could

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: have been 15 20% or whatever the margin was all the sudden it could be down below 10 or it could

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: be at a really you know a real level of discomfort from a feasibility point of view so look there

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: is plenty of other challenges but there's some big key ones that I see pre the build that can really

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: have a detrimental effect on the project another good question that came through was

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_00]: can you talk a little bit about the mindset or even the mental health of residential developer

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and I thought that was a good question in a lot of honesty I hadn't probably thought a huge

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: amount about it but I think it's a key thing and in all the education I've done and training

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and bits and pieces I probably probably haven't heard that spoken about maybe enough and like

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_00]: mindset is a massive thing because I've seen this before and I spoke about it earlier that

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been a lot of people they pump up the numbers of a site and one thing I've noticed the

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: difference between someone who is not so much experience because I've seen experience developers

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: have this challenge in this problem with mindset as well but one of the biggest things I've noticed

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the gap between someone who really who really gets it and understands it versus say someone who's just

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: always under pressure, always under the pump always really you know up against the wall is a

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of it is to do with the mindset the mindset of that developer and it's something I'm trying

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: to work on myself as well as I as I push ahead with doing developments and doing projects and

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: it's also something I'm trying to encourage our clients especially when they haven't secured a

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: site before acquiring the site doing the acquisition is really understand and get an idea of the type

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00]: mindset you want to have as a residential investor and developer. Now when what I say what I mean

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: when I say that is do you want to be a developer or a investor who is constantly under stress

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: who is constantly stressed about will this development work? Who is constantly under

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: financial pressure, financial strain you know that's taking a toll on your mentally.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you constantly wanting to be the type of developer and this is another big one like

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: are you wanting to be the type of developer who is such a micro manager and control freak where

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: you can't rest at night, you can't sleep at night, you can't you know you can't

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_00]: build a team because you continually not trust trusting of your team. You're not empowering

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: key moving pieces and I talk a lot about having a dream team and you hear a lot more of this

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: having great quality consultants, great quality contractors, builders, designers, town planners,

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: having an absolute dream team around you where you can entrust them to that project and I think once

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it comes down to a lot of it growing yourself as a leader, understanding that hey there's a

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: difference between managing and leading. You know yes there's an element of managing in what you do but

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I find the best developers are great leaders and what they do they get amazing people around them

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: who are good at what they do and they entrust them to do that, they empower them to do that.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas I find sometimes some of the most stressed out investors and developers have come across

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: they're just they're trying to do every every moving parts job for them and

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: there's an old saying if they've been through their six-star contact or designer if they've been

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_00]: through their seven to eight on ninth build or like I get a lot of flags on that because it means

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_00]: that they haven't often built that camaraderie, that trust they haven't taken the time to build that

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that strength of relationships and mindset to key thing and it's really looking at what's

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: like what are you trying to build? I'll talk a little bit for myself. Like for me I

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: want to do property developments so that I can obviously generate our wealth for myself,

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_00]: for my family to be able to make a positive difference in the world but I also want to do projects

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that give me a level of comfort, that give me a level of obviously pride but I also

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: don't I don't want to be doing projects we're on constantly stressed out that I'm putting so

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_00]: much strain and pressure on myself and I've seen it. I've seen this with so many developers

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen with especially a lot of the bigger developers where they get themselves so

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: understrain and so under the pump and so under stress that they overwork themselves

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that then takes a mental toll on their emotional and mental state and their impacts,

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: key areas of their lives especially relationships like I've seen so many

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: relationships, marriages and relationships get busted up over strain developments that have just

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: put unnecessary and unnescerary and undue pressure on people financially and as a result can

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: cause huge internal conflict with family. I've seen that old kids cut off from parents as a

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: result of you know not making the main thing the main thing and really letting you know wealth or

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: projects get in the way. So look for me really mind sets, mind sets key and this is something

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm spending a lot more time now talking with clients at their especially when they're at

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_00]: acquisition stage is saying you know what what type of project is going to bring you

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously satisfaction but what type of project do you want to do that is going to be

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: enjoyable? Something that's enjoyable, something that doesn't put unnecessary strain and pressure

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: because it can you know it can take its toll on you mentally and emotionally even physically. I've

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: thought of the strain and the pressure putting themselves under it. And I think a lot of that

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_00]: comes down to your mindset of really just reverse engineering. I talk a lot about reverse

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: engineering in numbers but it comes to doing developments but I think we also need to reverse

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: engineering mindset and our happiness and our mental health from doing a project. Why actually

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: saying what is the end goal in this? What do I want this project to achieve? How do I want this

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_00]: to impact my mental state? How do I want this project to impact my marriage or my relationship

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: with my partner and my wife? How do I, my husband? How do I want this project to impact my

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_00]: relationship with my kids? How do I want this project to impact my day today? How do I want

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00]: it to impact my career, my job, my business? There's so many different things we can look at

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and if you reverse engineering that you can then start to say well you know what? I don't want

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: unnecessary, unnecessary, or unjuice pressure. I don't want to be working 10, 20, 30, 40 years

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: a week. I don't want to be constantly chasing my tail. I don't want to have the answer under such

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: time pressure that I'm literally expecting everyone else to move heaven and earth around me and

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: all the sudden at the end of the project. I'm literally going to burn all of my team and my

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: off consultants and builders and different people and I think a lot of that comes down to mindset when

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you reverse engineering, you mindset, you then become a lot wiser and a lot smarter when it comes

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: to your acquisition stage of a development and for me mindset then leads to really making wires

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and smart decisions. Decisions that are going to have a big impact on your future. Like

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_00]: the best of some of the best developers I see, they say no to 910, 20, 30, 40 sites and yes to

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: the one great site that just makes sense. One that has plenty of margin, one that's got, you know,

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: they've dissected the project, they've looked at, they've de-risked all these different elements.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_00]: They've got, you know, exit strategies. They've got opportunities if they have to sell. They can

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: bring in investors if they need a little bit of help. They can do a JV. You know, they've got all

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_00]: these different things covered so that they can pivot if circumstances change and they're not

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_00]: so bogged down and tied to this project where this is a make or break and I think a lot of that,

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, just comes from that instant, you know, generation where I want it now. I want it quickly

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and I've just found that's a huge thing and there's something I'm really passionate about now

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_00]: that I want to, sorry, I'll just fix it. It's something that I'm really passionate about. I want to

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_00]: really impact this industry and especially people I interact with and through this podcast. I want

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to try and really champion this, this element around. I really just looking at your numbers,

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: having a really clear picture of what you're trying to achieve here and I just think it'll

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_00]: at all, strengthen all the areas of your life. Like, and you'll actually love and enjoy

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: what you do if you're smart about acquiring the right site. So, you know, getting a site that

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_00]: has good numbers, it's good margin. You know, we're factoring lots of different contingency

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that using real numbers, you know, inflating numbers to satisfy a lender just so you can do

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that project. You know, times have been gone as well. We talk a lot about the feasibility and numbers,

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00]: but a lot of people don't factor in time into their feasibility as well. And I think that's

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: a big one-people miss because all the sudden they're pressuring people to do something that's

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: it, you know, almost whether it be impossible or a fairly difficult or unachievable

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_00]: timeframe, whether that be a consultant, whether that be expecting a builder to build in the

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: timeframe that's just not really stickly feasible. And the problem is then all the pressure goes

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_00]: on that consultant who they're not the one that's secured that site. They're not the one who

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: didn't factor in contingency. They're not the one who was unwise about those decisions and I just

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: think if you factor those things in, you're able to really do projects that are fulfilling

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_00]: projects that are exited, exited to do projects that are obviously profitable.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Projects that you can step back and, you know, play your part, do your piece, but take the time

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_00]: to build the right people around you so that you can trust them and they they understand your

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: goals, they understand your plan and your mindset and that they're on the same page as you,

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: pushing in the same direction as you, helping you generate those goals, those wealth goals,

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_00]: those life goals for some people that's to pull back a bit, you know, to have a bit more time on

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_00]: their hands for some people that's to generate additional wealth to do different things

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_00]: for some people, you know, everyone's got different ways of which they're wanting to do. And if

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: you get people pulling in the same direction as you, it's such a exciting process to be involved

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and like I said, when challenges come, when difficulties come, you can just pivot. You just pivot

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_00]: stress-free, you can take the time, make the right decision and you can pivot, you've

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: factored in those elements, you've factored in that contingency, you've factored in that time contingency,

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you've got some eggs at strategies, you've got some backups if you need to bring in an investor,

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_00]: or if you need to do a JV, or if you've got to, you know, get the approval on the site and

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00]: flick it and still make some profit out of it but you can avoid potential headaches, you know,

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you're factored in all those, all of those matters. So yeah, some mindsets very, very key.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Another good question that came through was what role does feasibility play in the early stages of

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: a project and how can developers ensure they're making sound decisions? For me, feasibility is

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_00]: massive. Absolutely massive when it comes to doing projects. I'm amazed the amount of people that

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_00]: don't run their own numbers that don't run feasibilities, I'm amazed at the amount of people

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: that just buy a site based on an agent's one agent, the selling agents advice. I'm amazed by

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_00]: the amount of people that just did not even look to see if this project was even feasible or possible.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I saw a lot of that probably a couple of years ago, 18 months, 12 months,

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_00]: 18 months or so ago when things were really booming in New South Wales and we were seeing

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: like so-it's you literally had to buy them within a day if they were on the market, or even

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of the off-market sites and like because there was such competition from buyers that I saw so many

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00]: people literally just buying sites because they saw those four other due places on the street or

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: saw that there was three other multi-dwelling developments currently under construction in council

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00]: for DA so all the sudden they're going, well I can fit four townhouses on this site let's

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: snap it up, bang let's buy it without running numbers, without running a feasibility.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And for me that's just absolutely, you know it's just dangerous. I spoke before about mine set

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and one of the biggest killers of a strong happy satisfied, healthy hole, development mindset

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: is not doing your numbers, not doing a feasibility but you know for me feasibility is isn't like

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: numbers is one element of feasibility as I said before, time is a critical factor

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's also looking at the constraints. Is there other options of what you can do on this site?

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you bound by one option? But it's also looking at is there potential to keep a house on the

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_00]: site? Sometimes fees are I'm amazed like the amount of people that don't

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: don't factor in, hey can we keep a house? Like sometimes they're house copycat but I'm amazed

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_00]: like I've seen it where people buy a block, a corner blocks, a priming sample, where the houses in fairly

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_00]: good neck and they're knocked down, they'll do a knock down and to be able to detach dwellings

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_00]: something. Well you could have kept that house done a little rain out of it, but also all

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the sudden sometimes you can even sell that house back onto the market for not too much less

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: than what you paid for the overall site. So you essentially getting land for free or for a very

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: minimal price for that second dwelling. So that's where feasibility comes into play is looking at

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_00]: what options are they on this site? Are there any constraints on this site? Are there any show

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: stoppers? Is there anything that literally kills the development in the water? So we walk away?

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_00]: If sometimes they're not show stoppers some of the constraints but they require

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00]: some consultant input. And it's tricky if you're only doing one development a year,

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: it's tricky to get a key consultant especially really good consultants to do due diligence

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: for you. That's where it's vital to partner up with like planners, designers, people who have a

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: really good sound team behind them so they can do that due diligence for you. Sometimes still

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: water complain is she sometimes you know sewer, the sewer complain is she sometimes you can be

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: native trees that will hinder a driveway crossing. So it's all well and good to do that due play

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_00]: but if you can't get that second driveway crossing in or if there's no ability to put a shared

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: driveway crossing and you can only have a driveway on one side. Well that can be a show stopper like

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: there can be all different elements you know that are flood like flooding that can have an impact

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: that sometimes flooding may not necessarily impact that your occupancy could have an impact

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: on subdivision like there's so many moving pieces and elements that come into play with the feasibility.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know then the key thing is feasibility requires research.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people when it comes to like resales for example they can just talk to the selling

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_00]: agent but you gotta remember like and it's not a bag the agent session but the reality is that

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_00]: agent they're first and foremost goal is to sell that site for their vindo. That's their goal

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_00]: but so sometimes they're going to give you numbers that look attractive and look good but if

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you don't do your own research and it's not hard to get comparable these days.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: You know don't be afraid to ask that agent ask a whole bunch of agents in that area for

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: comparables get your own comparables there's so much software out there today that's fairly inexpensive

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_00]: that you can you can use together that information and there's even free tools out there

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00]: you can use to get your own comparables but then you need to have a really good feasibility

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_00]: template whether it be an Excel spreadsheet there's great programs out there now that also have

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_00]: feasibility software and built but you're really unneeded like an Excel spreadsheet to start with

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: or if you want to be old school you can do the old handwritten element but just you know make sure

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you're factory in all the different moving parts you know a lot of people don't factor in subdivision

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: the costs of subdivision especially if it's a tolerance title into their feasibility.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people don't factor in contributions the section 94's but also we've got the state

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_00]: contributions in a lot of like Sydney and little warrard new castle central coast

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of those area base councils now that you've got that contribution as well that

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: yes it might be a smaller contribution but at all that's up it all that's up and if you

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_00]: keep your contribution tight if you keep it if you keep it I guess um if we cut that

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_00]: in there if you keep your feasibility you know really robust and keep it just keep it strong

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and full of sorry I'll remember the shocker if you keep your feasibility

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_00]: you know really detail that's going to help you in the back end of your project please it's going

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_00]: to mean you're factored in all those elements um you know it's important to factor in your construction

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_00]: like it's it's it's it's really hard for a builder to give you a lot of people go off a square

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_00]: made a rape and a square made a rape doesn't cut it because what if they're sloping the salt

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a rock what if there's crossfall what if there's all these different elements that come

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_00]: into play that um so and it's it's a frustrating question for a builder to answer

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: it is a square made a rape but you know you've got it you do have to do a lot of digging

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_00]: but you better off making sure that you don't really go in under and because that comes back

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_00]: to that mindset question or spoke about that's what puts a lot of undue unnecessary pressure

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_00]: on investors residential developers is the fact that they didn't allow enough

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_00]: contingency that didn't allow enough in their construction cost see better off to you know

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_00]: to make it a bit higher to make it you know with a bit more fat in the development and then you

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_00]: can make a decision on um your own risk level or your own comfort level as to whether you should

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_00]: proceed or not everyone's got a different level of margin and a level of return that they're

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: comfortable to see that you know some people have a lot more behind them so they can possibly

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_00]: do things on a slightly less margin or if you've done a lot more volume or if you've got

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot more consistency from for example a builder that you know that you've done multiple projects

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_00]: with me can get some a lot clearer and clean and numbers like you can then run on possibly

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: a slightly less margin but if you really starting out or you've only done a couple of projects

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_00]: my recommendation is to really make sure you've got some contingency make sure you've got some fat

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: in your feasibility and not just going off the record resale the beauty is if you are holding

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: a property with a long settlement that can be an advantage too you can possibly fall cars but again

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_00]: you're still running some sort of risk and everyone's got different risk levels and risk profiles

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of the forecasting of what they can expect on that project.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Another good question that came came true was as a developer yourself what lessons have you learned from

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_00]: your own small development projects? I've learned a lot of lessons and I think for me the good

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: thing about stepping out and doing projects is it is a learning process I haven't always got

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_00]: it right you know we've got a project at the moment that we built in we're building it during

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: your fairly well fairly strong but time of boom but at the moment the market's quite flat so it's

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_00]: tricky to sell products so we're having trouble selling our product at the moment so we've

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_00]: got to make that decision do we do we hold the stock and rent it out but the problem is we're

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: paying obviously interest on on those sites or do we do we sell them cheaper do we target more

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: instead of homebuyers do we target investors who are wanting to you know really leverage

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_00]: the some of the tax depreciation and that side of it around the new property so like timing can

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_00]: be a big factor and some of it can be out of your control but like I guess for us because we ran

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_00]: good to claim numbers we you are numbers I had people around us who were really switched on in that

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_00]: space like we do have some weakling room and we have extra strategies we've got things in place

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_00]: but look I think a lot of it is a lot of the lessons I've learned are really big key lessons

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: around feasibility making sure you can really have options and get our clauses and strategies

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_00]: but you know there's there's so it's some things projects I've been involved in where you

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: you kick yourself to like I'll give you an example like myself and a business partner we

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_00]: would have a site ocean view site in Koyama where I live on the South Coast now we we option this

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_00]: site from the RMS during COVID just before COVID actually so we option this site for 2.6 million

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_00]: now yes we got a call option on it but we had a due diligence period and so we option this site the

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: idea was to do this is 9G places so 18D dwellings like a subdivision 9 blocks with 9G places so 18D dwellings

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're going to do that project it was an amazing project hit incredible numbers but the

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_00]: workshop down everything died for two months who was to know there was going to boom off the

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_00]: back of that but the problem is everything died for a couple of months and as a result we got nervous

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_00]: so we we had to release a reasonable size deposit within after this due diligence period time with

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00]: another tricky thing happened is this particular council Koyama Council they changed them in

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_00]: lots eyes for due places due localities from at the time it was 450 square metres you could

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_00]: do a due place on to 600 square metres to counteract the low rise diversity housing code and as a

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_00]: result then at the yield of our site dropped from 9 blocks down to 7 now that was going to be

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_00]: 6 due places so 12 dwellings plus one dwelling on on a smaller piece of land so we're down

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_00]: from 18 dwellings down to 13 so obviously our feasibility went from looking really amazing to not

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: as great there we made the decision that we didn't want to deal with that stress I talked

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously I talked about mindset before we made this decision it still could have worked

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_00]: but at that particular point in time COVID it hit my business had gone quiet my business partner

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_00]: business had gone quiet because it the first two months of COVID no one knew what was going to

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_00]: happen no one knew it was going to boom that's for sure and as a result we decided not to proceed

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_00]: with securing the option over that property and it was a good option to 18 month off call option

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_00]: we decided not to proceed with that development and as a result we let it go now I say this

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_00]: reason now 18 months later the RMS sold that site at auction for 6.3 million dollars no D no D

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_00]: A on it just a raw piece of land so we had an option to 2.6 billion 18 months later during

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_00]: the boom time after COVID that site sold for 6.3 million so we could have sold that for 6.3

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and without even getting in a DA on that site you know so that's one of those crying moments where

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_00]: you're just like how did they happen but you know one thing it taught me is sometimes that's going

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_00]: to happen in my journey but you know what I hear at so many stories of where people go the

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_00]: other end of the scale where they had no risk profile with a no dotted line where they don't

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_00]: they choose not to cross the line where they've lost everything they've lost all their wealth

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_00]: they've lost their house you know a lot of them have lost their relationship lost their marriage

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_00]: as a result of not having I guess a line in the sand where they choose to walk away now

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of people when I tell that story a lot of people go that's crazy you know you must

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_00]: feel terrible about it I'm like I do but you know one thing that got me excited maybe

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00]: realized that there is always deals out there and sometimes I'm going to have those stories of

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_00]: where the one that got away but you know what I've got I've got a whole bunch of stories of ones

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: like I could tell you where like other voided headaches other voided losing everything you know

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_00]: where I just went with my guard I went with my knowledge I went with my research I went with

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_00]: your diligence and made that decision not to proceed not to go ahead and as a result I save myself

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_00]: a whole world of pain and a whole world of headaches just by making smart decisions so

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah for me there's some of the lessons I've learned in my development journey

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and a lot of it comes down to just developing your own mindsets developing your own strategies

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_00]: developing your own comfort levels of how you're wanting to do things but and really just

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_00]: deciding and determining that hey I'm not going to go against my values I'm not going to go against

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_00]: my gut but I'm also not going to go against some of the some of the the lines or some of

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_00]: the the precedents I set in place knowing that some I'll pinch myself in the future but

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that means that there's always deals out there there's always great deals to be had some

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_00]: you miss out on some you know you'll avoid but if you if you're smart about it you'll be out of

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_00]: fine deals that bring a level of comfort and level of excitement and achievement to help you

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_00]: fulfill the fill your goals so look I think I might pull it up there I hope you've enjoyed this session

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_00]: make sure you if you've enjoyed this session please feel free to share it on all of our channels

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_00]: make sure you subscribe on all the channels YouTube on Spotify on Apple podcasts and once again

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_00]: thanks for listening hope you've enjoyed this session and we'll talk to you next week