Beyond the Build: The Power of an Open Book Policy with Michael Krkovski of Sky Developments

[00:00:04] Well, welcome to another episode of the Residential Developer Podcast. My name's Nathan Battishall. I'm the host and this has been a little time in the making, but I'm really honoured and privileged today to have the incredible builder, a really great guy, Michael from Sky Developments. It's good to have you in, finally, mate, into the podcast studio. You've travelled up from down south into our studio here. It's good to have you in.

[00:00:28] Thanks, mate. I've watched a lot of episodes and it's great to finally be here, mate. It's an honour.

[00:00:33] It's good. You've been a big supporter of our podcast and obviously we do a fair bit together.

[00:00:38] We do.

[00:00:39] I just, there's a lot of things I love about the way you run your building company and I think obviously our listeners are people doing projects, residential developers, investors, mums and dads, people who want to generate wealth. And I love the fact that you've built a really great business in the Illawarra just around working with people who want to generate wealth.

[00:01:01] And I think there's some really good things I want to pull out of that discussion today.

[00:01:05] But just to kick us off, do you want to just give us a bit of a high-level rundown, just a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your company and I guess what got you into building and having a passion for doing projects and developments?

[00:01:18] Well, I've been in the industry for about 30 years. So I won't bore you with a lot of that timeline. Okay. It was more when I met Daniel. So he's one of the directors at Sky and my business partner.

[00:01:33] I was supervising at the time, commercial. So I'm a pretty, I was a pretty efficient carpenter. Okay. I more gravitated to fix out carpentry. I liked the real detailed stuff, you know, erecting frames, pitching roofs. And that really wasn't my thing. I really liked the detailed carpentry.

[00:01:56] Okay. As far as I felt the carpentry could take me, I wasn't stimulated anymore. So I decided to get into supervising. A friend of mine was working in Queensland and he had some luxury apartments that he was looking after as a project manager.

[00:02:16] And he said, look, you'll be suited for this role. Come up and give me a hand. I loved it. Okay. We had 13 stories. It was four units per floor. That kind of set the tone for me. I unlocked a skill I never knew I had. Previously, it was just, I was a chippy on residential sites.

[00:02:38] I loved the structure, how organised the commercial sites were. Everything ran on time. If something wasn't on time, there had to be a reason for it. If we were, you know, if budgets weren't met, there was a reason. Why wasn't it met? You know, we've got a timeline. We need to finish in six months. The formula was worked out. We need a certain amount of men, manpower to achieve that.

[00:03:03] So it just really unlocked something that really helped me in today's, where I'm at as a builder, you know. But once that kind of ran dry, I didn't have that passion anymore for it. I came back down to Wollongong and I met Daniel. He was a commercial glazer doing all the high end stuff. And I wanted to get back on the tools a little bit. So I said to Daniel, you know, do you need a hand? He said, yeah, look, jump on board.

[00:03:31] Our first job was in Double Bay doing these luxury units. And I was accustomed to the millimetres. When you're measuring glass, it has to be to the mill. When we're doing sub-sills that are six and a half metres long, we've got mill and a half packers. The precision was great, you know. And we just had a chemistry, me and Daniel, and we just got on like a house on fire. And that just exploded.

[00:03:54] At the time, Wollongong was going through a huge commercial boom. There were high rises everywhere back then. And for me and Daniel, we ended up at about 16 strong. I had about 10 carpenters and about six fitters thereabouts.

[00:04:12] The access that we were getting to projects because me and Daniel were both really efficient at what we did. Reliable. We were on five or six of the biggest high rises in Wollongong at the time.

[00:04:25] And me and Daniel were like, where's this going? This is really spiralling, you know. Is this really what we want to do?

[00:04:34] And Daniel's 10 years younger than me. And he said to me, mate, I don't see myself retiring like this, you know.

[00:04:41] And the penny dropped. And I'm like, mate, you know what? Neither do I. What are we going to do?

[00:04:46] Like we've got a big crew. We've got a big team. And I had just came back from a Tony Robbins seminar, you know.

[00:04:56] And it was really funny that we said, listen, we want to build, okay. We want to get back to grassroots, okay.

[00:05:03] So from doing, you know, four or five high rises in Wollongong to being on jobs, you know, 20, 30 million.

[00:05:14] We started on $130 reno at the top of Mount Kira. Me, Daniel and I kept one of the apprentices and we found our peace.

[00:05:22] Yeah.

[00:05:22] And a lot of people told us, what are you doing? Are you crazy? Like you just had a good thing going.

[00:05:27] But it just came back to when we made that decision, you've got to run with it.

[00:05:32] And I refer back to that seminar that I went to. One of the things he said was, if you really want to take the island, you've got to burn your boats.

[00:05:40] Yeah.

[00:05:41] And that resonated. Like plan B, what happens if it's not going to work out? It's not an option.

[00:05:46] Yeah.

[00:05:47] This is what we want to do. And we're both very efficient carpenters in our trade. And we just said, look, this is what we're going to do. And a lot of people were like, oh, you'll be back. You know, you'll come back. Are you going to keep a crew? You've got 16 guys.

[00:06:02] Yeah.

[00:06:02] Keep a crew in commercial. No. I don't want that.

[00:06:07] Yeah.

[00:06:07] This is what we're going to do. And we're going to put all our effort into making this work. And it's just, look, here I am today.

[00:06:15] Yeah.

[00:06:16] In a podcast with you, you know, from $130,000 reno.

[00:06:19] That's it.

[00:06:20] You know, so it's, you set your sights on something, mate. You've just got to have that vision.

[00:06:25] Yeah.

[00:06:25] And just back yourself.

[00:06:26] Yeah.

[00:06:27] You know, you always land on your feet one way or another.

[00:06:29] Yeah, that's right. That's right. And sometimes the best thing is not to have a plan B, like you said, isn't it?

[00:06:35] Yeah.

[00:06:36] Yeah.

[00:06:36] To really go after what you want. And I think it's one thing that really strikes me with you. And I think with this podcast, I'm not interested in just getting a builder on for the sake of getting a builder on the podcast. I think you've got a really uniqueness. But yourself and Daniel, and it obviously flows through your company, through Sky, you're very values driven. And I think that comes out. You're very relational, values driven.

[00:07:02] And I think that is a, sometimes a missing piece in the industry.

[00:07:07] Appreciate that.

[00:07:07] So I guess it'd be good to unpack a little bit about first and foremost, where that came from.

[00:07:14] Yep.

[00:07:16] And I guess how's that helped you form the type of building company you want to build? And how does that look then in terms of the clients you work with and the relationships you build within the industry, whether it be through trades, consultants, clients, and from there?

[00:07:33] Yeah. Well, my father always told me, if you don't have a fin on your back, son, don't jump in the pool.

[00:07:41] Yeah.

[00:07:42] And we don't.

[00:07:42] Yeah.

[00:07:43] I wasn't brought up that way.

[00:07:44] Okay.

[00:07:45] And I learned very quickly that it's not because I was good at my trade or I'm a good builder.

[00:07:52] It was I genuinely cared about the projects that I did and for the people that I worked for.

[00:08:02] Okay.

[00:08:03] Wollongong is really small.

[00:08:05] Yeah.

[00:08:05] So it started off with the opportunities that we had building, the people that I was building for, I already had a really good relationship with.

[00:08:15] So the open book policy that I always talk about, it just grew organically.

[00:08:21] Yeah.

[00:08:22] So we kind of got used to or we got a taste of the way things should be and really should work.

[00:08:31] Okay.

[00:08:31] And then when we came across clients that were really taken back by our approach, that weren't used to the open book, the honesty, and just being genuine, you know?

[00:08:47] It was I would remember coming to some meetings and I might as well have had a balaclava and a gun.

[00:08:52] Yeah.

[00:08:53] Because that's how you're perceived straight off the bat.

[00:08:56] Yeah.

[00:08:56] You know?

[00:08:56] Now, if you're someone that's resilient, that's happy to be perceived that way because that's just the way the industry is and a lot of builders have made a lot of money on it and they'll sleep at night.

[00:09:06] Not to say that they're bad builders or they're bad people.

[00:09:09] Yes.

[00:09:09] They're just used to that.

[00:09:11] Yeah.

[00:09:11] That's it.

[00:09:12] With Daniel and I, we haven't been brought up that way and it was going against the grain.

[00:09:16] Yep.

[00:09:16] And it was like, listen, if I'm going to grind it out and I am giving this client everything, I have to make sure that it's the right client.

[00:09:27] Yes.

[00:09:27] And that's really, as you get older, you start to becoming a little bit more confident and you really start to understand, okay, look, I'm almost 50 now.

[00:09:37] I've probably got, you know, 10 years left.

[00:09:40] Who do you really want to share the remaining time with?

[00:09:44] Yeah.

[00:09:44] Okay.

[00:09:45] For me now, I've been on the tools for 25 years.

[00:09:49] Yeah.

[00:09:50] I've got four bulge discs.

[00:09:51] Yep.

[00:09:51] I've got one fragmented disc.

[00:09:53] Yep.

[00:09:53] Okay.

[00:09:54] I've done the hard yards.

[00:09:55] Yeah.

[00:09:56] Okay.

[00:09:56] That nail bag was around me for 25.

[00:09:59] Yep.

[00:09:59] Now what I'm doing now, I laugh, I kick myself.

[00:10:02] This isn't work.

[00:10:03] Yeah.

[00:10:03] When you love what you do, it doesn't become work.

[00:10:06] Yeah.

[00:10:07] So if technically I'm not working, I want to share this experience with friends.

[00:10:14] Yes.

[00:10:15] And the clients that we're starting to attract are becoming really, really good friends.

[00:10:21] Yep.

[00:10:21] I contact all of my clients, you know.

[00:10:24] I talk to some of my clients more than I talk to my wife.

[00:10:27] Yeah.

[00:10:28] Yep.

[00:10:28] You know, constantly on the phone.

[00:10:30] It's now we're at a position where we're really starting to attract those people that

[00:10:37] have been burnt in the industry.

[00:10:39] Yep.

[00:10:39] You know.

[00:10:39] I don't need 50 or 60 clients.

[00:10:42] No.

[00:10:42] I don't need that.

[00:10:44] Yeah.

[00:10:44] I just need a handful of clients that are happy to keep on rolling on.

[00:10:50] Yep.

[00:10:50] You're making money off them.

[00:10:52] They're making money off you.

[00:10:53] And you're enjoying the journey.

[00:10:56] Yeah.

[00:10:56] Yep.

[00:10:57] And I smile when I say that because it's, this isn't work.

[00:11:01] No.

[00:11:01] You know.

[00:11:02] When you love what you do, it resonates.

[00:11:03] Yeah.

[00:11:04] You know.

[00:11:05] And there's something, just jumping in there too, there's something special and I say this

[00:11:10] a lot.

[00:11:11] There's something powerful when you get to actually watch other people do well as well.

[00:11:15] Yep.

[00:11:15] Like we're both in the similar industry in the fact that we've got similar clientele, people

[00:11:20] who are doing developments, doing projects to generate wealth.

[00:11:23] So when you see that joy from pulling the trigger on a project and generating some wealth to go

[00:11:32] on adventures or to, you know, hit some family goals.

[00:11:35] Absolutely.

[00:11:36] It's a great feeling.

[00:11:37] Yeah, definitely.

[00:11:38] Yeah.

[00:11:39] It's looking as well, like, you know, I'm sure a lot of builders will look at their projects

[00:11:44] and, you know, I'll walk through some of my projects and I'll always see if there's a

[00:11:48] little bit of a lip on a tile somewhere, I'll look and think, oh, no, I hope they don't notice

[00:11:53] that, you know.

[00:11:53] Yeah.

[00:11:54] You never really look at it and you're 100% happy with it, you know.

[00:11:58] But when you're walking through and you just see the joy.

[00:12:01] Yeah.

[00:12:01] That, you know, it brings to clients, people walking through it.

[00:12:05] Some people might think, oh, look, that's a little bit hairy fairy.

[00:12:08] Yeah.

[00:12:08] But that's what I enjoy.

[00:12:10] Yep.

[00:12:11] That's what brings me enjoyment.

[00:12:12] Yeah.

[00:12:12] It's not the actual build process.

[00:12:14] Yeah.

[00:12:15] You know, it's getting the enjoyment and sharing the journey with people that actually

[00:12:20] mean something to you.

[00:12:21] Yeah.

[00:12:22] Yeah.

[00:12:23] You're dead right because I think if you are going to work with clients, and I think that's

[00:12:28] the beauty of this industry is, and I talk a lot about this on this podcast, is too many

[00:12:35] people who are investors and developers doing projects, if they're not the builder, too

[00:12:40] many people that they're price checking.

[00:12:44] They're not building that camaraderie and that loyalty.

[00:12:46] And they're not always honest about the return they're trying to get or the margin and that sort

[00:12:52] of thing.

[00:12:52] But they're constantly bouncing from builder to builder or consultant to consultant.

[00:12:57] Yeah.

[00:12:57] And they don't get to experience the joy of actually a high trust relationship.

[00:13:01] Definitely.

[00:13:01] Absolutely.

[00:13:03] Have you, you've obviously probably been on both ends of the scale.

[00:13:06] Absolutely.

[00:13:07] Or you've lost out on projects.

[00:13:09] Yeah.

[00:13:09] I'm sure where someone just wasn't completely honest.

[00:13:12] And, um, but I think long term, it's not a great way to live as an investor or developer

[00:13:19] where you're constantly changing teams.

[00:13:21] If, if that's, so there's some builders there that don't need to have that connection with

[00:13:28] the clients and that's fine.

[00:13:30] Yeah.

[00:13:30] I'm not here to tell everybody you need to have a marvelous relationship.

[00:13:34] Business is business to some.

[00:13:36] There's a lot of companies that are doing well out of it.

[00:13:38] Yeah.

[00:13:38] I can only talk from my personal experiences.

[00:13:41] Yeah.

[00:13:41] Okay.

[00:13:42] Yeah.

[00:13:42] When you niche down into a market and I've listened to a lot, you know, with, with you

[00:13:49] and your podcast.

[00:13:50] And for me, it's been a natural progression over the last, especially when I got off the

[00:13:55] tools.

[00:13:56] Yep.

[00:13:56] Okay.

[00:13:57] I had some, and it's not all roses and sunshine.

[00:14:00] Like I've got some clients that you ring up, they'll tell you I'm the worst builder in

[00:14:03] the world.

[00:14:04] Yeah.

[00:14:04] They've had a terrible experience, you know, like 100%.

[00:14:07] We've all got them.

[00:14:08] Yeah.

[00:14:08] But I analyzed why.

[00:14:11] It wasn't because we didn't do a good job.

[00:14:14] The product was great.

[00:14:15] It was a lack of communication.

[00:14:17] Yes.

[00:14:18] I didn't give the client enough need.

[00:14:21] Yep.

[00:14:22] Okay.

[00:14:22] Yep.

[00:14:23] I didn't explain what I needed to with them.

[00:14:26] Some clients are needy.

[00:14:27] Yes.

[00:14:27] And that's all right.

[00:14:29] Yeah.

[00:14:29] You know, they just wanted more of me.

[00:14:31] But because I was on the tools.

[00:14:33] Yes.

[00:14:33] I couldn't do that.

[00:14:35] So when we decided, look, this isn't working, I can't be everywhere.

[00:14:39] Okay.

[00:14:40] Because we were heavy.

[00:14:41] We used to do all our own duplexes, everything.

[00:14:43] Yeah.

[00:14:43] And then it was, I can find somebody to replace what I do on site.

[00:14:49] I can't find someone to have that connection with the client because my name's on that site fence.

[00:14:56] Yep.

[00:14:57] They've engaged me for me.

[00:15:00] Yes.

[00:15:00] So it was having that, getting off that hamster wheel, off the tools and getting into the role that I am now is what really, you know, catapulted us, you know, heaps.

[00:15:19] And narrowing down with the bad experiences that I had with clients and not just writing them off and saying they're difficult.

[00:15:27] Yep.

[00:15:27] Okay.

[00:15:27] No, why?

[00:15:29] Where did the community, because we've always done a good product.

[00:15:31] Yes.

[00:15:32] Okay.

[00:15:32] So if it was the client, were they expecting more from me?

[00:15:36] Where did I let them down?

[00:15:38] Yep.

[00:15:39] You know, it might have been none of them.

[00:15:41] It's just not the right fit.

[00:15:42] Yeah.

[00:15:43] Yeah.

[00:15:43] That's it.

[00:15:44] And for me now, it's like if we're not the right fit, it's okay.

[00:15:48] Yeah.

[00:15:49] I don't need your work.

[00:15:50] You don't need to come with me.

[00:15:52] We don't need to feel pressured.

[00:15:53] Yeah.

[00:15:53] And I think a lot of builders are really scared to let that go.

[00:15:57] Yep.

[00:15:57] So they will take on someone.

[00:15:59] You're forcing a square peg into a round hole.

[00:16:01] Yeah.

[00:16:02] And it's like you don't need to do that.

[00:16:04] No.

[00:16:04] You know, it just doesn't work.

[00:16:06] And it's having that strength to identify early we're not the right fit.

[00:16:11] Yeah.

[00:16:11] And when you decide to niche down, that just becomes so clear.

[00:16:17] Yep.

[00:16:17] It's like I'm not after quantity anymore.

[00:16:19] Oh, but you're reducing your scope, Michael, if you niche.

[00:16:22] You know, it's risky.

[00:16:23] Yes.

[00:16:23] I've burnt the boats, pal.

[00:16:24] Yeah.

[00:16:24] Yeah, that's it.

[00:16:25] You know, I'm on the island.

[00:16:27] There's no going back.

[00:16:27] I've burnt it.

[00:16:28] Yep.

[00:16:28] And now I'm not after quantity.

[00:16:30] I'm after quality.

[00:16:31] Yes.

[00:16:32] You know?

[00:16:32] And I think our work, not I think I know, our work and our reach for clients has grown heaps.

[00:16:42] Yep.

[00:16:42] Because I'm looking for a particular client and that client is out there looking for me.

[00:16:47] Yes.

[00:16:47] Yeah.

[00:16:48] You know?

[00:16:48] And when you find each other, it's like yin and yang.

[00:16:50] Yep.

[00:16:51] Yep.

[00:16:51] And it just works.

[00:16:52] Yeah.

[00:16:53] Yeah, I agree.

[00:16:54] And look, I think you've got a really unique model, which is why I thought it was important to get you on.

[00:17:00] And like, you nailed it.

[00:17:02] There's no one way to build.

[00:17:04] And it's not saying that your way is the way or another builder is the other way.

[00:17:09] But the reality is, and I'm sure you've seen this, that probably from COVID, through COVID,

[00:17:16] then obviously through some of the, you know, different housing crisis we've gone through

[00:17:21] and probably more so the volume market, there's a lot of builders who, there's builders who've

[00:17:26] gone bust and that sort of thing.

[00:17:27] So trust has been at a bit of a low, I've found sometimes.

[00:17:33] But the problem is, it's a minute demographic where this lack of trust has kicked in.

[00:17:39] But the problem is, there's people who, like you said, you might as well have walked into

[00:17:43] the room with a balaclava and a gun.

[00:17:46] Yeah.

[00:17:46] Yeah.

[00:17:47] Have you found that your, I guess your approach has helped you in that space?

[00:17:53] Yeah, absolutely it has.

[00:17:54] Of building trust?

[00:17:54] Yeah.

[00:17:55] So trust is earned.

[00:17:59] Yeah.

[00:17:59] You can't give it away.

[00:18:00] Okay.

[00:18:01] You can't buy it.

[00:18:02] You've got to earn it.

[00:18:03] Okay.

[00:18:04] And when we're in the investor market, you're dealing with people, successful professionals.

[00:18:11] Yes.

[00:18:11] Okay.

[00:18:11] They've seen the shit.

[00:18:13] Yep.

[00:18:13] Okay.

[00:18:14] They've seen it.

[00:18:15] Yep.

[00:18:15] They don't want to deal with it.

[00:18:16] Okay.

[00:18:17] So how do you earn someone's trust on if you put your time together, a couple of hours

[00:18:22] of interaction?

[00:18:23] Yeah.

[00:18:23] And you want them to trust you with millions of dollars of their money.

[00:18:28] Yes.

[00:18:28] You know, it doesn't work.

[00:18:30] So what do you do?

[00:18:32] Open book.

[00:18:34] Yeah.

[00:18:34] Okay.

[00:18:35] I've got nothing to hide.

[00:18:36] Yeah.

[00:18:37] I will show you everything.

[00:18:39] You've got to extend that olive branch.

[00:18:40] Yes.

[00:18:41] You can't get all angry when they're, you know, you're showing them everything at first

[00:18:48] and, you know, they're still not buying into it.

[00:18:49] Some builders get really frustrated.

[00:18:51] Yeah.

[00:18:51] You've got to show them everything.

[00:18:52] Yes.

[00:18:53] You know, if you have a wall, then they will have a bigger wall.

[00:18:56] Yeah.

[00:18:57] When they can see through you, hey, listen, this is it.

[00:19:01] Yep.

[00:19:01] Oh, but Michael, you know, this is a little bit dear or you're too dear or I'm not quite

[00:19:06] sold on it.

[00:19:07] Let's work together.

[00:19:09] Yes.

[00:19:09] Come and have a look.

[00:19:11] Once they start seeing all the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle and they're really feeling engaged,

[00:19:17] they're professionals.

[00:19:18] Yeah.

[00:19:18] Some of them aren't.

[00:19:19] They have zero construction knowledge whatsoever.

[00:19:22] They've just done well in their life.

[00:19:24] Yep.

[00:19:24] And they want someone they can trust and they understand, oh, builders, oh, they're scary.

[00:19:29] Yeah.

[00:19:29] You know?

[00:19:30] But once they see that you're genuine, okay, 100%, and you're showing them every single

[00:19:38] dollar, it straight away the walls come down.

[00:19:42] Yeah.

[00:19:42] And for me, that's just, it's just seamless after that.

[00:19:46] You have uncomfortable conversations.

[00:19:48] It's never going to stop.

[00:19:50] Yeah.

[00:19:50] No matter how I can sit here boasting, oh, my clients are great.

[00:19:53] You know?

[00:19:54] We have difficult conversations all the time.

[00:19:57] But it's how we navigate through that with, there it is.

[00:20:01] You know?

[00:20:02] And not touching up your clients.

[00:20:04] Yeah.

[00:20:04] No, that's, for me, that's the biggest one.

[00:20:06] Yep.

[00:20:06] You know, if a client, you know, chooses to spend a little bit extra on the development,

[00:20:12] okay?

[00:20:14] Let's just say, like, they want to upgrade the stone or they want to upgrade the kitchen,

[00:20:17] joinery, anything like that.

[00:20:19] Yeah.

[00:20:19] You know?

[00:20:19] Why do I need to put builder's margin on it?

[00:20:21] Yeah.

[00:20:22] I haven't done anything whatsoever.

[00:20:25] Yep.

[00:20:25] Why do I need to?

[00:20:27] Don't.

[00:20:28] Yes.

[00:20:29] It's after the long game.

[00:20:30] Yes.

[00:20:31] It hasn't cost me a cent.

[00:20:32] Oh, what about admin fee?

[00:20:34] I've got enough jobs to run.

[00:20:36] Admin's keeping pretty busy.

[00:20:37] It's okay.

[00:20:38] They're paying their wage.

[00:20:39] Yes.

[00:20:39] Yeah.

[00:20:40] I don't need a variation to cover admin fee, you know?

[00:20:43] And it's little consistent things like that that clients see that start to back up these

[00:20:50] guys for real.

[00:20:51] Yep.

[00:20:51] You know?

[00:20:52] And that's a massive one.

[00:20:53] Huge.

[00:20:53] Like, you just nailed it and I want to dig a little bit deeper into that.

[00:20:58] Yeah.

[00:20:58] Because I think you've just hit a nerve in the industry, I think.

[00:21:02] Because I've found, I'm probably on that, on the same side of the fence, but I'm probably

[00:21:07] a couple of steps earlier in the piece.

[00:21:10] Yep.

[00:21:11] And from looking for another lens, I find a lot of people who have done a few projects

[00:21:18] or maybe they built a project home or, you know, in their earlier life when they first

[00:21:23] got married or they were younger, so they'd been stung a little bit with the variations.

[00:21:27] And that's a big contention I find that's caused a bit of a lack of trust.

[00:21:32] Yeah.

[00:21:32] Have you found that that's one of the big contentions people come with, that they're

[00:21:38] really afraid of, this is the price you're working towards, but are they going to get

[00:21:44] stung on the back end?

[00:21:45] Absolutely.

[00:21:46] I think that's where a lot of builders come undone.

[00:21:50] And I know this for a fact.

[00:21:52] It's not because they're bad builders, not because they're bad communicators.

[00:21:55] They're lazy quotas.

[00:21:57] Yes.

[00:21:58] Okay?

[00:21:58] They do not give that quoting process the time of day.

[00:22:02] Okay?

[00:22:03] You've got to really do your due diligence.

[00:22:05] Yeah.

[00:22:06] You cannot rush the quoting stage.

[00:22:10] Okay?

[00:22:11] If you miss a few things, okay, unforeseens, stuff like that, what do you think's going

[00:22:18] to happen?

[00:22:19] There's going to be varies.

[00:22:21] Yep.

[00:22:21] You have to run through it.

[00:22:23] Now, I understand if it's an architecturally designed home.

[00:22:26] Yeah.

[00:22:26] Okay?

[00:22:27] Cost plus unforeseens, we understand.

[00:22:29] But let's get real, okay?

[00:22:31] Yeah.

[00:22:31] 90% of the projects we do for investors ain't that difficult.

[00:22:35] No.

[00:22:36] Okay?

[00:22:37] They're clear cut.

[00:22:38] Yeah.

[00:22:38] The only variation I want to see is if my peers go more than two metres than what I've

[00:22:43] allowed for.

[00:22:44] Yes.

[00:22:44] Or they've chosen something else.

[00:22:48] Yep.

[00:22:48] Okay?

[00:22:50] Contingency is a big one as well.

[00:22:51] Yes.

[00:22:52] Okay?

[00:22:52] If your client is not prepared to have a contingency, well, then you've got to really start to

[00:22:58] have a look at that quote.

[00:23:00] Okay?

[00:23:01] But with the variations, you don't need to touch them up all the time because, you know,

[00:23:07] that's where a lot of the communication breaks down and that's clicking your client.

[00:23:11] Yeah.

[00:23:11] If your client is not prepared to be honest with you with the budgets, and this is why I

[00:23:15] struggle with the mums and dads or even the one-offs.

[00:23:19] Yes.

[00:23:19] Okay?

[00:23:21] My cards are on the table.

[00:23:23] Yeah.

[00:23:23] You know?

[00:23:24] I've only got 1.3.

[00:23:26] And then during the build, they rip out another 200K.

[00:23:29] Yeah.

[00:23:29] And it's like, guys, why did we need to go through this?

[00:23:33] It's so unnecessary.

[00:23:35] Yeah.

[00:23:35] You know?

[00:23:36] So it's, yeah, the varies is very, very, very, very contentious topic.

[00:23:41] Yeah.

[00:23:42] You know?

[00:23:42] But you don't need to touch up your client all the time.

[00:23:45] Yeah.

[00:23:45] Yeah.

[00:23:46] Yeah.

[00:23:46] And look, I guess trust, high trust brings strong relationship.

[00:23:51] Yeah.

[00:23:52] And low trust obviously erodes relationship.

[00:23:54] And really, to build that long-term partnership, you do need that, don't you?

[00:24:00] Absolutely.

[00:24:00] You need the trust.

[00:24:01] You need the relationship.

[00:24:02] And that's where communication can break down too because…

[00:24:05] Get your builder to open the book.

[00:24:08] Yeah.

[00:24:08] And if they won't…

[00:24:09] If they won't, why not?

[00:24:11] Yeah.

[00:24:11] And a lot of builders will be like, oh, why?

[00:24:14] Let's talk about margins.

[00:24:15] Yeah.

[00:24:16] Let's, you know, if you've got a client that's spending, you know, one and a half,

[00:24:19] two million dollars, why shouldn't that person know what your fee is going to be?

[00:24:25] Yeah.

[00:24:26] Now, I've opened up a huge can of worms.

[00:24:28] I hear people like, are you serious?

[00:24:29] You know?

[00:24:30] Does it work for all people?

[00:24:33] No.

[00:24:34] Yeah.

[00:24:34] Okay?

[00:24:34] I'm talking about repeat clients.

[00:24:37] Yes.

[00:24:37] Okay?

[00:24:38] If you want to get into that investor market and if you're a developer out there and you

[00:24:42] want a long-term relationship with your builder, you've got to know what he's charging you.

[00:24:48] Yes.

[00:24:48] If you're not interested in that, well, then you know what?

[00:24:51] You cop the varies.

[00:24:52] Yeah.

[00:24:52] And you cop it on the chin.

[00:24:53] Yep.

[00:24:54] Okay?

[00:24:54] But if you really want a sustainable relationship and stress-free…

[00:25:01] Yes.

[00:25:01] Knowing that your money, it is.

[00:25:03] It's huge.

[00:25:04] Then you've got to know what his margins are.

[00:25:07] Yeah.

[00:25:08] You know?

[00:25:08] And we offer, like I've had a client, Michael, this development, we want to go ahead with

[00:25:14] it, but the margins just aren't quite there, right?

[00:25:18] They've done all the right things.

[00:25:20] They've reduced it in size.

[00:25:22] Because rather than saying, okay, look, I'm sorry, you know, okay, my margin's exposed.

[00:25:28] Okay?

[00:25:28] I'm involved in design.

[00:25:30] Look, I think we can get this product out in six or seven months.

[00:25:33] It's an easy design.

[00:25:34] I will go super lean on it.

[00:25:36] Yep.

[00:25:36] I will go right at my cost.

[00:25:38] Yep.

[00:25:39] Oh, really?

[00:25:40] Why wouldn't I?

[00:25:41] I'm involved in design.

[00:25:43] Yeah.

[00:25:43] You know, we want to make you as much money as possible.

[00:25:47] And I think this is where a lot of builders, they really just, it's not about us.

[00:25:52] Yeah.

[00:25:52] Okay?

[00:25:52] We get our margin.

[00:25:54] Yeah.

[00:25:54] And if you're not a lazy quota and if it's priced correctly, that minimizes your risk

[00:26:00] straight off the bat.

[00:26:01] You need to make sure that your client maximizes their profits.

[00:26:06] Yep.

[00:26:07] And you need to really show them that you're all about maximizing their profits.

[00:26:12] And if they walk around, if you do a duplex and, you know, you're only making 150k out of

[00:26:17] it, but they've made six.

[00:26:19] Yep.

[00:26:19] You know what?

[00:26:20] Don't, okay, no problem.

[00:26:22] Yeah.

[00:26:22] Move on to the next one.

[00:26:23] Yeah.

[00:26:23] You know, and talk about, okay, you made really good money on this one.

[00:26:27] I helped you out.

[00:26:28] Yeah.

[00:26:28] Now, it's a two-way street.

[00:26:29] Yeah.

[00:26:30] You can't be dirty.

[00:26:31] You see some builders, oh, he sold it for way above.

[00:26:34] And bro, be happy.

[00:26:35] Yeah.

[00:26:36] Be happy.

[00:26:37] You've done a good job.

[00:26:38] You got a good product.

[00:26:39] He made good money.

[00:26:41] Move on to the next one, mate.

[00:26:42] That's it.

[00:26:42] They'll come back.

[00:26:43] Absolutely.

[00:26:44] Yeah.

[00:26:44] You know, I think that's what's really missing, which is, a big one for me is, mate,

[00:26:48] we live in a throwaway society.

[00:26:50] And this is what I tell a lot of my clients, okay?

[00:26:52] Yeah.

[00:26:52] Something breaks, what do we do?

[00:26:54] It's too hard to fix it.

[00:26:55] Yeah.

[00:26:56] We just throw it away.

[00:26:57] Yeah.

[00:26:57] A lot of people have adopted that with clients in business.

[00:27:01] Yes.

[00:27:01] It's so hard to manage or retain that relationship.

[00:27:07] So they would just put all that effort in another one.

[00:27:09] Yeah.

[00:27:09] I saw a quote on Instagram which really resonated with me probably about a year and a half ago.

[00:27:14] And it started off with, divorce is hard, marriage is hard, choose your heart.

[00:27:19] Yeah.

[00:27:19] And for me, I'm going on 25 years with my wife and that just like, bang.

[00:27:24] It's like, it's so true.

[00:27:26] Yeah.

[00:27:27] Choose your heart.

[00:27:28] Yeah.

[00:27:29] You know?

[00:27:29] Yeah.

[00:27:29] And that's why I think a lot of people just don't analyze what's hard.

[00:27:33] Yeah.

[00:27:33] You're going to put all that effort into finding someone new.

[00:27:37] Yeah.

[00:27:38] You've got someone that you've already done all that work with.

[00:27:41] Oh, so hard.

[00:27:42] Life's hard, man.

[00:27:43] That's it.

[00:27:44] Relationships are hard.

[00:27:45] Go away, you know?

[00:27:46] It's just too easy to tap out.

[00:27:48] They don't burn the boats.

[00:27:49] Yeah.

[00:27:49] They keep a fleet behind them.

[00:27:51] Yeah.

[00:27:51] Yeah.

[00:27:52] You know what I mean?

[00:27:52] It's true.

[00:27:53] It's true.

[00:27:53] You've just got to burn the boats.

[00:27:55] Yeah.

[00:27:55] Yeah.

[00:27:55] Like, that's it.

[00:27:56] And that helps once you niche.

[00:27:57] Yep.

[00:27:58] You know?

[00:27:59] Yep.

[00:27:59] And I took a leaf out of your book on that and, you know, really finding your niche.

[00:28:06] Yeah.

[00:28:07] Really, yeah.

[00:28:08] It really helps your business.

[00:28:10] Yep.

[00:28:15] Do you narrow it?

[00:28:16] Do you really?

[00:28:17] Yeah.

[00:28:17] You know?

[00:28:18] Yeah.

[00:28:18] I'm doing – I was doing – I stopped quoting for people who won't come into the office.

[00:28:22] Yes.

[00:28:22] Okay?

[00:28:22] This is a big one now.

[00:28:24] Our email, the social media posts, you know, the Hillcrest.

[00:28:27] Yeah.

[00:28:28] Went gangbusters.

[00:28:29] Yep.

[00:28:29] I had people, oh, Michael, how much will it cost to do this, this?

[00:28:32] I have a block, you know?

[00:28:34] I would ring them up, always rank them up.

[00:28:36] What's the square metre rate?

[00:28:37] I always rang up.

[00:28:38] That's the old school service, okay?

[00:28:40] Yes.

[00:28:40] Would ring up, hi, how are you?

[00:28:42] Come into the office.

[00:28:43] Oh, but I'm shopping around at the moment.

[00:28:45] I really like your product.

[00:28:46] I'm sorry, but I'm a referral-based builder.

[00:28:49] Yes.

[00:28:50] Okay?

[00:28:51] Come into the office, sit down, I'll answer your questions.

[00:28:55] Yep.

[00:28:55] But face-to-face, 90% of them don't want to know.

[00:28:59] Yeah.

[00:29:00] Yep.

[00:29:00] They just want a price shop.

[00:29:01] They just want a price.

[00:29:03] They're not interested.

[00:29:03] Oh, but let me see what you're pricing and then I'll come back to you.

[00:29:06] Yeah.

[00:29:06] Do I need those people?

[00:29:08] No.

[00:29:08] No.

[00:29:08] There's 652 other builders that are happy to take them on.

[00:29:11] Yeah.

[00:29:11] Yeah, that's it.

[00:29:12] That's it.

[00:29:12] You know?

[00:29:13] It's not for me.

[00:29:14] Yep.

[00:29:14] You know?

[00:29:14] And it gives you peace.

[00:29:15] Yeah.

[00:29:16] Once you've got that clarity, then it's awesome.

[00:29:19] And the quality of client that comes your way is the one that you want to put all your

[00:29:22] effort into.

[00:29:23] Yeah.

[00:29:24] Yeah.

[00:29:24] Yeah.

[00:29:24] One thing I do love about you is that you've got a good number of clients who you're doing

[00:29:29] ongoing projects with.

[00:29:30] Yeah.

[00:29:31] And I always say to a lot of people, look, if you're looking for a builder, ask them for

[00:29:35] referrals or someone, especially when it comes to projects, developments, investments.

[00:29:39] Yeah.

[00:29:40] You know, a lot of people listening to this podcast, if they're not builder developers,

[00:29:44] they're investors, they've generated wealth and they want to do projects.

[00:29:48] Yeah.

[00:29:48] I always say to them, go find a builder who's done multiple projects for that client.

[00:29:54] Yeah.

[00:29:54] For the same client.

[00:29:55] If they don't have that, there's possibly a reason why.

[00:29:59] One thing I've learned about you is you've got a pool of these guys now.

[00:30:04] Yeah.

[00:30:05] It's getting good.

[00:30:05] A lot of them become friends.

[00:30:07] Yeah.

[00:30:08] Absolutely.

[00:30:08] You've got that open book policy.

[00:30:11] How have you developed that?

[00:30:13] Okay.

[00:30:13] I'll give you a really, really good example of one.

[00:30:15] We did a really challenging project in Bulleye.

[00:30:18] It was a duplex.

[00:30:19] Okay.

[00:30:19] We inherited the design.

[00:30:21] Hate's a strong word.

[00:30:23] I really dislike when I inherit a design.

[00:30:27] Yes.

[00:30:27] Like if it doesn't come from duplex, I don't want it.

[00:30:30] Really.

[00:30:30] You know.

[00:30:31] But, you know, it's really difficult.

[00:30:34] Okay.

[00:30:34] We had boundary, we had retaining walls on the boundary.

[00:30:37] The reason why we had to do them on the boundary because you had a three-tiered backyard.

[00:30:42] You had all this landscaping and you had to bring your lawnmower, any wheelbarrow,

[00:30:48] any work you wanted to do in your backyard, you had to go through your house if we brought

[00:30:52] the retaining walls in.

[00:30:53] Okay.

[00:30:53] Yeah.

[00:30:54] So the design wasn't the best.

[00:30:57] Demolition had already taken place and they left the site in a mess.

[00:31:01] And it had been there stagnant for a few years.

[00:31:03] So I think a lot of the neighbours were using it as a dumping site, this and that.

[00:31:07] Anyway, as we were cleaning it, we came across asbestos, rocks, dirt.

[00:31:12] So I couldn't traditionally get rid of the soil like I normally would.

[00:31:15] So they classed it as contaminated.

[00:31:16] Right?

[00:31:17] So a portion of it went away as contaminated and a portion of it went away as clean heavies.

[00:31:24] Right?

[00:31:25] But it still cost the client a lot of money.

[00:31:27] It came too close to $90,000 in varies.

[00:31:30] Okay?

[00:31:32] Client totally understood.

[00:31:34] I couldn't have asked for a more understanding client.

[00:31:36] Okay?

[00:31:38] I didn't put any builder's margin on at all.

[00:31:39] I could have slapped 15% on that.

[00:31:41] Yeah.

[00:31:42] I didn't.

[00:31:43] Yeah.

[00:31:44] Why?

[00:31:45] Yeah.

[00:31:45] I just – and first-time client?

[00:31:48] Yep.

[00:31:48] First time we had just started the job, for me it was unethical.

[00:31:52] Yes.

[00:31:52] I priced the job accordingly.

[00:31:54] She didn't touch me up on any of the pricing.

[00:31:57] Yep.

[00:31:57] This is your price.

[00:31:58] This is my price.

[00:31:59] Yep, no worries.

[00:32:01] Why would I then capitalise on something that, you know, I had my machine there, yet I used some of – big deal.

[00:32:09] Yeah.

[00:32:10] Like really?

[00:32:11] Yep.

[00:32:12] It just cost her $90,000.

[00:32:14] Yes.

[00:32:15] What am I going to do now for a 15% on that?

[00:32:17] Yeah.

[00:32:17] It's just – it's not how we roll at all.

[00:32:20] Yeah.

[00:32:20] I even spoke to my civil guy.

[00:32:22] I said, look, I'm not putting any builder's margin.

[00:32:24] This is what it came to.

[00:32:26] Oh, wow.

[00:32:26] You think you can help us out?

[00:32:28] Yeah, no worries, Mick.

[00:32:29] Absolutely.

[00:32:30] Yep.

[00:32:30] And we saved her a lot of money.

[00:32:32] Yep.

[00:32:32] That build went for about 18 months.

[00:32:37] I really struggled on that build.

[00:32:38] Like it's not all peaches and cream.

[00:32:39] Yeah.

[00:32:40] You know what I mean?

[00:32:40] Tricky, so I –

[00:32:41] That's it, you know.

[00:32:44] And we navigated through that through Open Book, okay,

[00:32:47] not touching up the client, okay.

[00:32:50] We're in business together and you know her.

[00:32:52] Yes.

[00:32:52] Maybe on the next podcast, you know, we can bring into that.

[00:32:55] Yes.

[00:32:55] But just from those real genuine acts.

[00:32:59] Yes.

[00:32:59] No repeat business.

[00:33:00] There was no talking.

[00:33:01] That's what she just wanted to do.

[00:33:03] Yep.

[00:33:03] It was just – look, it's the way you're being brought up.

[00:33:05] Old school.

[00:33:06] Yeah.

[00:33:06] You know, it says old school, you're genuine.

[00:33:09] Yeah.

[00:33:09] You know, if I was there laboring away for three or four weeks,

[00:33:12] then I could understand.

[00:33:13] But my involvement in that variation was very, very minimal.

[00:33:18] Yep.

[00:33:18] And now I'm going to capitalize on that?

[00:33:21] It's not what we're about.

[00:33:22] No.

[00:33:22] And now because of that, we're in business.

[00:33:25] We've started another business together.

[00:33:27] Yep.

[00:33:27] And we are on the phone, well, look, we have to hang up.

[00:33:30] We talk that much.

[00:33:30] Yeah.

[00:33:31] Yeah.

[00:33:31] You know?

[00:33:32] And it's just – that's gold.

[00:33:34] There's other projects in the horizon.

[00:33:36] Absolutely.

[00:33:36] She's looking for projects, you know, and it's just – it's – yeah,

[00:33:41] you can't plan for that.

[00:33:43] No.

[00:33:44] You know?

[00:33:44] No.

[00:33:45] And the beauty of that is, like you said, there was never another project

[00:33:50] on the horizon.

[00:33:51] It was just in that moment making a decision.

[00:33:54] Yep.

[00:33:54] What do I stand for?

[00:33:55] Yeah, that's it.

[00:33:55] The values, mate, that we talk about, you know?

[00:33:58] Yeah, that's it.

[00:33:58] And I just think that's a really powerful thing because I think as a result then

[00:34:04] you've got a high trust relationship then.

[00:34:07] Yeah.

[00:34:08] You've got that high trust and you can pivot so well when there's high trust

[00:34:14] because you're not questioning motives.

[00:34:17] She gave me total autonomy after that.

[00:34:19] Any problems that we had, we needed to navigate through, it was – the walls were down.

[00:34:25] Yeah.

[00:34:25] You know?

[00:34:26] It was just so easy.

[00:34:28] Yeah.

[00:34:28] And if I had a client that was just over me and micromanaging because the job did go

[00:34:32] longer.

[00:34:33] Yeah.

[00:34:33] You know?

[00:34:34] She made it so much more easier.

[00:34:37] Yeah.

[00:34:37] Like it was just incredible.

[00:34:39] Yeah.

[00:34:39] And for her, she was like, you made the process so easy.

[00:34:43] And I'm like, no, you made the process so easy, you know?

[00:34:47] Yeah.

[00:34:47] So it's – look, it can be done.

[00:34:49] Yeah.

[00:34:49] We're doing it time and time again.

[00:34:50] Yep.

[00:34:51] And it's picking your clients.

[00:34:53] Yeah.

[00:34:54] Getting that synergy.

[00:34:55] Yep.

[00:34:55] Yep.

[00:34:56] I think you hit another really good point though.

[00:34:58] I want to just dive a little bit into this because I think there's this – I've seen

[00:35:03] this bit of a myth the last couple of years.

[00:35:06] Well, it's been around for a lot longer.

[00:35:07] But when people think custom, they think automatically, more expensive, can't be done,

[00:35:14] especially when it comes to development.

[00:35:15] Yeah.

[00:35:15] Absolutely.

[00:35:16] So then that's when people lean to going – they think design, build, so they lean straight

[00:35:21] to like a project or volume company.

[00:35:26] And not all volume companies do this, so I don't want to generalise.

[00:35:30] But the reality is a lot of them do make their money on variations.

[00:35:35] A lot of those elements.

[00:35:36] Yeah.

[00:35:36] And which is why most people who are switched on developers and investors prefer to work

[00:35:42] with, you know, more sort of a builder that's involved in the process.

[00:35:47] But let's talk about design and build because people automatically think design and build

[00:35:52] so they go to a company that's got like a project builder because they do design and

[00:35:57] build.

[00:35:57] But people don't realise that design and build – there's builders out there who are happy

[00:36:02] to be involved in the design process, have a great relationship with a team of planners

[00:36:06] and designers.

[00:36:08] Can you talk a little bit into that?

[00:36:10] Yeah.

[00:36:10] Because I love that.

[00:36:11] Because at the end of the day, it's about hitting numbers.

[00:36:14] Yeah.

[00:36:14] There's a lot of architects out there who don't involve a builder.

[00:36:19] Even in my career, I've been in that place where we haven't got the numbers right.

[00:36:24] And then so you've got a project that can't be built.

[00:36:27] Yeah.

[00:36:27] There's an old saying, you know, 60 or 70% of DAs for development sites don't get built.

[00:36:32] Well, I think builders have their self to blame for that, okay?

[00:36:36] Because 90%, look, I'm putting out a figure there, but, you know, a lot of the clients,

[00:36:42] okay, they go to the architect first.

[00:36:45] Yes.

[00:36:45] Why?

[00:36:46] Because architects are more respected.

[00:36:49] Yes.

[00:36:49] They don't have that persona of if I go to a builder first, he's going to rob me of everything.

[00:36:53] Yeah.

[00:36:54] Okay?

[00:36:54] Yeah.

[00:36:55] So they feel more comfortable with an architect.

[00:36:56] Yes.

[00:36:57] So they'll go to the architect and no matter how much – and I'm sure you're going to

[00:37:00] back me up on this – no matter how much you tell them, listen, I think you're starting

[00:37:04] to struggle on – they're swept up in emotion.

[00:37:06] Yep.

[00:37:07] You know, and, okay, do you want me to draw this?

[00:37:09] I've voiced my opinion.

[00:37:10] Yes.

[00:37:11] I will draw it.

[00:37:12] Yes.

[00:37:12] Okay?

[00:37:13] It's going to cost 1.5, okay, 1.6.

[00:37:16] Well, I'll have a budget for 1.3.

[00:37:18] You know already that it's going to be over, but they don't want to listen.

[00:37:22] Yeah.

[00:37:22] And then they're forced to find a builder for that price.

[00:37:27] Yes.

[00:37:27] And this is where the perception starts, you're taking advantage of me.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:31] You're the crook.

[00:37:32] I'm like, whoa, wait on.

[00:37:34] No, no.

[00:37:35] Yes.

[00:37:35] You built something that you can't afford.

[00:37:37] Yes, that's right.

[00:37:38] You know, I'm not the crook.

[00:37:39] So getting involved early is paramount.

[00:37:42] Yeah.

[00:37:43] Money's hard.

[00:37:44] Yep.

[00:37:44] Okay?

[00:37:44] We all know borrowing capacities, margins are tight.

[00:37:48] Yep.

[00:37:48] If you – not if.

[00:37:50] You need to have a builder.

[00:37:53] Yep.

[00:37:53] If your architect hasn't got a builder, then you're with the wrong guy.

[00:37:58] Yeah.

[00:37:58] That's it.

[00:37:59] Okay?

[00:37:59] That's it.

[00:37:59] The two are pen and paper.

[00:38:01] Yep.

[00:38:01] And don't be lazy.

[00:38:03] And I tell all my clients, you're not bothering me.

[00:38:06] Oh, how many floor plans can we do?

[00:38:08] Mate, we have to get this right.

[00:38:11] Yes.

[00:38:11] And it works on square metres.

[00:38:13] Yeah.

[00:38:13] Okay?

[00:38:13] It's basic math.

[00:38:14] Yep.

[00:38:14] And that's what we start.

[00:38:16] Yeah.

[00:38:16] What do they have versus how many square metres it's going to be.

[00:38:21] Yes.

[00:38:21] And then we start on design, facades, all of that kind of stuff.

[00:38:25] But the number has to work.

[00:38:26] Don't think you're pulling 200K out of finishes.

[00:38:29] Yeah.

[00:38:29] It ain't going to happen.

[00:38:30] Yeah.

[00:38:31] You know, you're 200K short, you've got to drop 50 squares.

[00:38:33] Yep.

[00:38:33] Let's just say, you know.

[00:38:34] And it's basic math.

[00:38:36] Yep.

[00:38:36] If you can't get used to those figures, well, then you've got the issue.

[00:38:40] Yeah.

[00:38:41] Because nothing else is going to change.

[00:38:43] Yes.

[00:38:43] You know.

[00:38:44] Really, really important.

[00:38:45] Yep.

[00:38:45] You need to be involved into that.

[00:38:47] And you need to have professionals that are really equipped at quoting.

[00:38:52] Okay?

[00:38:53] Because like I said, I know personally some really good builders that do great products.

[00:38:58] Yep.

[00:38:58] But their quoting was just, I sent it to a QS.

[00:39:00] Yeah.

[00:39:01] QSs are great.

[00:39:02] Okay?

[00:39:02] This way I'm going to give my business partner Daniel a wrap.

[00:39:05] Yes.

[00:39:05] Okay?

[00:39:05] He does all the quoting.

[00:39:07] Yep.

[00:39:07] And his insight is phenomenal.

[00:39:11] Why?

[00:39:12] Because he wore an ale bag too for so long.

[00:39:14] He's been in the trenches.

[00:39:16] Yep.

[00:39:16] So he knows when he's looking at plans, he's looking at details.

[00:39:19] When he quotes, he knows I can't adapt a square metre to this.

[00:39:24] Yeah.

[00:39:24] Because I've got this issue with that.

[00:39:28] And then he will resort to pricing that we've done and he'll really zero it in.

[00:39:33] Not everyone's got a Daniel in the office.

[00:39:35] No.

[00:39:35] So they'll go to a QS.

[00:39:39] Right?

[00:39:40] That's a great start.

[00:39:42] But you need to have those ongoing support networks and pricing to zero it in.

[00:39:49] Yep.

[00:39:49] You need it this day and age.

[00:39:51] You can't do it.

[00:39:52] Yep.

[00:39:53] You know?

[00:39:53] If you're a developer that hasn't got a builder, you're in trouble.

[00:39:58] And vice versa, you need that architect.

[00:40:00] Yeah.

[00:40:00] Yeah.

[00:40:01] Yeah.

[00:40:01] It's got to work hand in hand, doesn't it?

[00:40:03] Yeah.

[00:40:03] And like you said, I think this is a really key point.

[00:40:07] And look, people have their ways they like to do things.

[00:40:10] I get it.

[00:40:11] But I think if you really want to have a great peace of mind, and look, the thing I do love

[00:40:16] about this industry, people are realising now.

[00:40:19] Yes, you want to generate wealth, but you want to do it, you want to generate a quality

[00:40:22] of life too.

[00:40:23] Absolutely.

[00:40:24] You want to be able to sleep at night.

[00:40:25] You want to be able to enjoy your marriage, you enjoy your relationship.

[00:40:27] I'm glad you said that, buddy.

[00:40:29] Yeah.

[00:40:30] That's...

[00:40:31] I have a mentor in the building industry, okay?

[00:40:34] He's pretty high up.

[00:40:35] And he really...

[00:40:37] There's one thing that we disagree on, okay?

[00:40:40] When I said to him, if I don't like someone, I'm not going to do business with them.

[00:40:45] He's like, Michael, you can't be like that.

[00:40:47] You don't have to like the people you do business with.

[00:40:49] You know what?

[00:40:50] I love you, but that's where we're going to stop.

[00:40:53] Yeah.

[00:40:53] Okay?

[00:40:54] Because the kind of person I am and my values, if I don't like someone, 95% of the reason

[00:41:02] I don't like them is because I can't trust them.

[00:41:04] Yeah.

[00:41:05] And what I offer, okay, and who I want to share my time with.

[00:41:10] You hit the quality of life.

[00:41:10] You hit the nail on the head.

[00:41:11] Yeah.

[00:41:12] Yeah.

[00:41:12] When you love what you do, this for me is no longer work.

[00:41:16] Yeah.

[00:41:17] And I really mean that.

[00:41:18] Yeah.

[00:41:18] You know?

[00:41:19] I've been in the trenches.

[00:41:20] It's a business.

[00:41:21] Yep.

[00:41:22] I get it.

[00:41:23] But I don't view it as work because I love it.

[00:41:25] Yeah.

[00:41:26] I haven't woken up in the morning, no matter how crook I've been, thinking I've got to

[00:41:30] go to work.

[00:41:31] Yeah.

[00:41:31] And that's priceless.

[00:41:33] Yep.

[00:41:34] You can't.

[00:41:35] You will never buy that.

[00:41:36] A million lifetimes.

[00:41:37] Yeah.

[00:41:38] You know?

[00:41:38] And when you've got that and you really feel like that, you only want certain people in

[00:41:43] your life.

[00:41:43] Yep.

[00:41:44] You know?

[00:41:44] Oh, Michael, but where are you going to find those people?

[00:41:47] Put it out there, pal.

[00:41:48] You will find it.

[00:41:49] Yep.

[00:41:49] Why do I feel comfort?

[00:41:51] Well, we're niching down.

[00:41:52] Yeah.

[00:41:52] You're justifying now where you want to go to yourself, you know?

[00:41:58] And it just works.

[00:42:01] I don't.

[00:42:02] If I don't like the person, if I don't trust the person, you don't need to do business with

[00:42:06] me.

[00:42:07] No.

[00:42:07] That's right.

[00:42:07] You get to choose.

[00:42:08] You get to choose.

[00:42:10] Why do you get to choose?

[00:42:11] Because I've been, I've had business with people that I don't like.

[00:42:16] Yep.

[00:42:16] It hasn't ended well.

[00:42:17] Yes.

[00:42:17] And even if it did, the amount of stress, it brought me through the whole process.

[00:42:23] Yep.

[00:42:24] You know?

[00:42:24] You have to learn.

[00:42:25] You have to go through it.

[00:42:26] You know?

[00:42:27] I say to Daniel a couple of times, he says to me, you know, I can't believe you let that

[00:42:31] client go.

[00:42:32] Yeah.

[00:42:33] You know?

[00:42:33] And I'm like, Dan, I'm 10 years older, bud.

[00:42:35] Yeah.

[00:42:36] I don't have the energy for this guy anymore.

[00:42:38] Yeah.

[00:42:38] Yeah.

[00:42:39] You know?

[00:42:39] I don't.

[00:42:40] Yeah.

[00:42:40] He doesn't value what we have.

[00:42:42] And that's okay.

[00:42:43] Yep.

[00:42:43] And I think that comes with age.

[00:42:45] That comes with being burnt.

[00:42:46] Yep.

[00:42:47] You know?

[00:42:47] And looking in the mirror and saying, you know what?

[00:42:50] You're not worth it, pal.

[00:42:51] Yeah.

[00:42:51] And look, that's okay.

[00:42:53] Yep.

[00:42:53] He will find 652 other builders.

[00:42:55] Yeah, that's right.

[00:42:56] That's happy to take him on.

[00:42:57] There's people out there.

[00:42:58] That's it.

[00:42:58] And there's always a price to pay, isn't there?

[00:43:01] Yeah.

[00:43:01] Like I know in my own journey in business there where I've taken on the wrong client.

[00:43:07] Yep.

[00:43:07] Someone always pays the price.

[00:43:09] And often, I don't know if it's the same for you, but often the people that pay the

[00:43:13] price are often the people I'm closest to, which might be my wife and my kids.

[00:43:17] Yep.

[00:43:17] Because I come home annoyed.

[00:43:19] I come home frustrated.

[00:43:20] I come home stressed.

[00:43:21] And those poor people who are most, for me, most important in my life pay the price.

[00:43:28] Absolutely.

[00:43:28] Because I didn't have the courage to make a decision I probably should have made.

[00:43:31] Mate, you go to the doctor and you find out you've got cancer.

[00:43:34] Yeah.

[00:43:34] They don't say, well, let's keep it in you for 12 months.

[00:43:37] Let's just wait and see.

[00:43:38] It's either you're going to cut it out or you're going to get chemo.

[00:43:40] Get it out of your life.

[00:43:41] Yes.

[00:43:42] People are the same.

[00:43:43] Yeah.

[00:43:43] Why do you keep cancer in your life?

[00:43:46] Yeah.

[00:43:46] It makes no sense.

[00:43:48] Yep.

[00:43:48] Why?

[00:43:48] Because we want to profit on them?

[00:43:50] Yeah.

[00:43:50] Well, that's where values come into it.

[00:43:52] Yeah.

[00:43:52] Yeah.

[00:43:52] Okay?

[00:43:53] If you can sleep at night profiting off someone, that's fine.

[00:43:56] Good on you.

[00:43:56] Good on you.

[00:43:57] All the world to you.

[00:43:57] Yep.

[00:43:58] You know?

[00:43:58] But it comes back to that old school values, that old school.

[00:44:02] Yeah.

[00:44:03] I'm not like that.

[00:44:04] Yeah.

[00:44:04] The company's not like that.

[00:44:05] I've employed people that aren't like that.

[00:44:07] Yeah.

[00:44:07] And culture.

[00:44:08] Yep.

[00:44:08] I think that's a word that gets thrown around in today's society by the younger generation.

[00:44:12] It's been overused sometimes.

[00:44:14] Far too much.

[00:44:15] Do they know what culture is?

[00:44:16] Yeah.

[00:44:16] It's a cool word.

[00:44:17] You know?

[00:44:18] Do you know what it is?

[00:44:19] Yeah.

[00:44:19] You know?

[00:44:20] You can't buy it.

[00:44:21] No.

[00:44:21] Okay?

[00:44:22] Cultures aren't.

[00:44:24] Yep.

[00:44:24] Okay?

[00:44:25] Through pain, through many a wrong decision.

[00:44:31] Yes.

[00:44:31] Okay?

[00:44:32] It's reinforced by the good decisions.

[00:44:35] Yep.

[00:44:35] It's the people that you have around you.

[00:44:38] Yeah.

[00:44:38] Okay?

[00:44:39] And it's you.

[00:44:41] Yep.

[00:44:41] Okay?

[00:44:41] The culture will not start if you're not driving it.

[00:44:45] Yeah.

[00:44:46] So if you don't stand by a set of values.

[00:44:49] Yep.

[00:44:50] And you don't have that crystal clear vision, your culture is going to be watered down or

[00:44:55] it's going to be manipulated by whoever you let in your life.

[00:44:58] Yeah.

[00:44:58] Yeah.

[00:44:58] You know?

[00:44:59] And a lot of successful people these days, and especially when you're in that investor

[00:45:03] base, they're smart.

[00:45:06] They own businesses.

[00:45:08] That's it.

[00:45:08] Okay?

[00:45:08] They're trusting you with millions.

[00:45:11] All right?

[00:45:12] Yeah.

[00:45:12] They cut through the shit.

[00:45:13] Yeah.

[00:45:14] That's right.

[00:45:14] When they see they're on gold, mate.

[00:45:17] Yep.

[00:45:18] They're in.

[00:45:19] Yeah.

[00:45:19] And when you get that loyalty from someone like that, it says, you're no longer in the

[00:45:23] prize pool.

[00:45:24] Yep.

[00:45:24] I call it the meat raffle.

[00:45:25] Yeah.

[00:45:25] When I get someone that's, you know, doesn't feel comfortable with the quoting, you know,

[00:45:30] Michael, look, I'm just after, you know, I'm just after a prize.

[00:45:34] They'll come through.

[00:45:35] Okay.

[00:45:35] Yep.

[00:45:35] It's a good project.

[00:45:36] We want to be involved.

[00:45:37] Good people.

[00:45:38] Yeah.

[00:45:38] You know?

[00:45:39] But the open book just doesn't work with them, whatnot.

[00:45:42] I want to get other quotes.

[00:45:43] And I encourage some people, get other quotes.

[00:45:46] Yep.

[00:45:46] You know?

[00:45:46] No problem.

[00:45:48] And then you see the way that that works and you're like, there's a part of you that's

[00:45:55] like, oh, you know, I wish I could just stick down this route.

[00:46:01] Yeah.

[00:46:01] And this is where we went, you know?

[00:46:03] And then when they start seeing as well how different you are and how different or the

[00:46:08] different service you provide with other people.

[00:46:11] Yep.

[00:46:11] That loyalty you get from that client, they will not go anywhere.

[00:46:15] Yeah.

[00:46:15] And you don't need to price.

[00:46:17] No.

[00:46:17] Like I've got five or six clients we don't price.

[00:46:20] Yeah.

[00:46:20] It's like, Michael, I've got a block.

[00:46:22] This is what I want to do.

[00:46:23] Yep.

[00:46:23] There's no prize pool.

[00:46:24] Yeah.

[00:46:24] There shouldn't be a prize pool.

[00:46:26] Yeah.

[00:46:26] And it just streamlines the whole process.

[00:46:29] And I guess you know their development goals for that project.

[00:46:34] Yeah.

[00:46:34] And like you said, when you've got a mentality that you want to help them hit those goals.

[00:46:39] Yep.

[00:46:40] As long as, obviously, it's got to work for both parties.

[00:46:43] Both parties.

[00:46:44] But not all rocks can be diamonds either.

[00:46:46] No.

[00:46:46] Not all rocks can be diamonds.

[00:46:47] You know what I mean?

[00:46:47] If you've got to come in on your builder's margin, if it's a little bit tight.

[00:46:51] Yeah.

[00:46:52] But you do that as long as the client is not giving you like, you know, let's just say,

[00:46:58] you know, a duplex, 300 squares and they want to build for 1.2.

[00:47:02] Yeah.

[00:47:02] You know?

[00:47:03] So I'm not dropping my margin if that's what you're going to do.

[00:47:05] You know?

[00:47:06] That's right.

[00:47:06] Good clients will understand, look, I need to come down in size.

[00:47:10] It's going to reduce my resale, this and that.

[00:47:12] But it's a two-way street.

[00:47:14] Yep.

[00:47:14] Yep.

[00:47:14] You know?

[00:47:15] And I think that's where I've really enjoyed seeing.

[00:47:20] And there's other builders out there that do this now.

[00:47:22] And I think it's really powerful is once you've got that relationship with that client,

[00:47:26] you can be involved all the way through even at the acquisition stage.

[00:47:31] Yeah.

[00:47:32] Because all of a sudden if they've got a designer and a planner but also a builder before they've

[00:47:36] acquired that next site, you can look at it and you can say, just so you know,

[00:47:41] there's a lot going on under the soil on that one.

[00:47:44] Yeah.

[00:47:44] Absolutely.

[00:47:45] That's what we're doing now with the acquisition.

[00:47:48] Yeah.

[00:47:48] Yeah.

[00:47:49] Yeah.

[00:47:50] Maybe just chat into that, like the acquisition side of it, your involvement.

[00:47:54] Well, it's the clients that we get and even for us as builders, okay?

[00:47:59] How many blocks do I send you?

[00:48:02] Yeah.

[00:48:02] Where it's – I really don't know what it's good for, if there's any restrictions and

[00:48:06] this and that.

[00:48:07] Yeah.

[00:48:07] And when you've already – when you've got a builder, okay, it just streamlines the

[00:48:12] whole process.

[00:48:13] Yeah.

[00:48:13] How many blocks?

[00:48:14] And it's surrounding yourself with those professionals, we need speed.

[00:48:18] Yes.

[00:48:19] Okay?

[00:48:19] Because decisions need to be made quickly.

[00:48:21] Yep.

[00:48:21] If you're waiting three weeks for someone to get back to you on stuff like that, it's

[00:48:25] not going to happen.

[00:48:26] That's it.

[00:48:27] Yep.

[00:48:27] You know?

[00:48:27] So that's really, really important to have that team around you.

[00:48:31] To the builder, architect and client.

[00:48:33] In today's society, those three have never been more important.

[00:48:38] Yeah.

[00:48:38] You need that.

[00:48:39] If you want to make money, okay, the dream team.

[00:48:42] Yeah.

[00:48:43] Okay?

[00:48:43] You keep on going on about that, but it's so true.

[00:48:46] Yeah.

[00:48:47] Okay?

[00:48:47] Yeah.

[00:48:47] If you're really serious about investing and developing, don't bounce around.

[00:48:52] Yeah.

[00:48:52] Take your time and pick someone that aligns with your values.

[00:48:58] Yep.

[00:48:58] Yep.

[00:48:58] You know, that's the most important thing.

[00:49:00] Otherwise, you're going to be stressed.

[00:49:02] And again, it's that quality of life.

[00:49:03] Yep.

[00:49:04] You know?

[00:49:04] I've got some clients that want to be involved every day I ring them up.

[00:49:08] They want to be involved.

[00:49:10] Yeah.

[00:49:10] You know?

[00:49:10] I love that.

[00:49:11] Yeah.

[00:49:11] Right?

[00:49:12] And I've got some clients, Michael, you don't need to ring me and tell me everything.

[00:49:15] Yeah.

[00:49:16] They're not emotionally invested in it.

[00:49:18] They're not emotionally invested in it.

[00:49:19] I appreciate it, bro, but, you know, no worries.

[00:49:21] Keep on going.

[00:49:22] Call me when it's locked up.

[00:49:23] Yeah.

[00:49:24] Perfect.

[00:49:25] Yeah.

[00:49:25] You know?

[00:49:25] No worries.

[00:49:26] That's them.

[00:49:27] So it's understanding your client.

[00:49:29] Some clients are more needier than others.

[00:49:31] Yeah.

[00:49:31] It doesn't make them bad.

[00:49:32] Yeah.

[00:49:32] It doesn't make them more difficult.

[00:49:33] Yeah.

[00:49:34] Just different personalities.

[00:49:34] It's just different personalities.

[00:49:36] Yep.

[00:49:36] You know?

[00:49:37] Yeah.

[00:49:37] So another big one, I think, and this is a funny one, like, you've spoken a lot today

[00:49:42] and I think it's absolutely gold about the open book and that's powerful.

[00:49:47] Yeah.

[00:49:47] But I think it needs both parties to have that mindset too because I think-

[00:49:52] I see this a lot where, and you touched on it, but I'd love to just go a little bit

[00:49:56] deeper into it for a sec, is too many developers and investors and people doing projects are

[00:50:03] not straight or honest about the return they want to try and achieve.

[00:50:09] Yes.

[00:50:09] And also what type of borrowing capacity they have at the start of the project.

[00:50:15] So for them, they're just thinking, I want to squeeze the builder as hard as I can to

[00:50:20] make a bigger return.

[00:50:21] Yep.

[00:50:22] But it's a mentality where only one person wins.

[00:50:24] Absolutely.

[00:50:25] And it's just not- there's no longevity in that.

[00:50:28] You fight fire with fire, everything burns.

[00:50:30] Yeah.

[00:50:31] Can you just talk a little bit into the strength of having, I guess, that ability to get a good

[00:50:39] picture of the type of return the client wants to make and early in that acquisition phase?

[00:50:45] It starts with the FISO, okay?

[00:50:48] And building that rapport with the client straight away, okay?

[00:50:53] And it's- but it's being crisp with your prices, okay?

[00:50:58] Having a design, having a good budget estimate.

[00:51:01] Yep.

[00:51:02] You know, budget estimates, in a lot of budget estimates, they mean nothing.

[00:51:07] Yeah.

[00:51:07] It's been put together, half-arsed.

[00:51:10] Yep.

[00:51:10] Okay?

[00:51:11] When the client finally pulls the trigger, they're $200,000, $300,000 out.

[00:51:14] Yep.

[00:51:14] So you've got to start on those initial figures.

[00:51:18] Yep.

[00:51:18] Okay?

[00:51:18] And then you, as the builder, have to start- if it's a new client, okay, are those figures

[00:51:27] actually viable?

[00:51:28] Do they work?

[00:51:29] Yes.

[00:51:29] And then if they're not telling you the truth, then you need to try and navigate through that

[00:51:33] by explaining or showing them.

[00:51:36] Yep.

[00:51:37] Right?

[00:51:37] If this is your budget, these are the numbers, right?

[00:51:40] This is the size it needs to be.

[00:51:42] But showing them through your budget estimate.

[00:51:45] Again, we keep on going about transparency.

[00:51:48] Yep.

[00:51:48] You need to be transparent to show them this is what things are going to cost.

[00:51:55] Yep.

[00:51:55] You know?

[00:51:56] And taking into account, because we're investor-based, I've got a lot of new clients that are starting

[00:52:02] to jump on board, are really impressed with, we calculate their holding costs.

[00:52:07] Yes.

[00:52:07] We ask them, you know, capital gains, are you building, are you keeping, are you selling?

[00:52:12] Yes.

[00:52:13] You know?

[00:52:13] What interest rate are you at?

[00:52:15] And that really- it's confronting.

[00:52:17] Yeah.

[00:52:17] And they're like, well, why do you want to know?

[00:52:19] It's like, well, I want to make you money.

[00:52:22] Yeah, that's right.

[00:52:22] I've got my builder's margin.

[00:52:24] Yes.

[00:52:24] I'm happy.

[00:52:26] Yep.

[00:52:26] Now it's making your money grow.

[00:52:29] Yes.

[00:52:29] You know?

[00:52:30] What are your interest rates?

[00:52:31] Does this development need to sit at- look, you know what, Michael?

[00:52:35] Well, we need to be out in nine months.

[00:52:37] Yep.

[00:52:37] Because anything after that, I'm chewing in the profits.

[00:52:39] Yep.

[00:52:40] Okay.

[00:52:40] Well, if you're involved in design, this is why I'm saying I hate-

[00:52:43] Yeah.

[00:52:44] Inheriting a project.

[00:52:45] Okay?

[00:52:46] Or a design.

[00:52:46] If you're involved in design, there's no blanket 12 months because that's the NBA or

[00:52:52] the HIA contract.

[00:52:53] Yeah, yeah.

[00:52:53] That's bullshit.

[00:52:54] Yeah.

[00:52:54] Exactly.

[00:52:54] Okay?

[00:52:55] You've got to know, I've designed it.

[00:52:57] Yep.

[00:52:58] Can I be out in nine months?

[00:52:59] Yes.

[00:53:00] I'm doing a development now, we're involved in design.

[00:53:03] You know, from slab, we're going to be out in six months.

[00:53:07] Right?

[00:53:08] Why?

[00:53:09] Why?

[00:53:11] Because the client was maxed.

[00:53:14] That's all they got.

[00:53:15] Yep.

[00:53:16] And some people would say straight away, oh, well, that's not my fault.

[00:53:19] Yeah.

[00:53:19] Well, okay, well, it's not in the long game, buddy.

[00:53:21] Yeah, that's right.

[00:53:22] You know?

[00:53:23] It's not.

[00:53:24] So it's really calculating those figures.

[00:53:26] Yep.

[00:53:27] Okay?

[00:53:27] And really knowing the product, the duration of the build.

[00:53:31] Yep.

[00:53:31] And knowing what you can build for.

[00:53:34] Yes.

[00:53:35] Don't just do a square meter because, you know, someone down the street says, oh, that's

[00:53:40] what we can build for.

[00:53:41] And you've got to know.

[00:53:42] Yeah.

[00:53:43] Okay?

[00:53:43] You've got to know what you can build for and at what spec.

[00:53:46] Yep.

[00:53:46] And on what site.

[00:53:47] Yes.

[00:53:48] Because if you're giving that client misinformation, well, then it's just a disaster.

[00:53:54] Yep.

[00:53:54] You know?

[00:53:55] So you've got to be – it's the quoting process.

[00:53:57] You've got to know your numbers.

[00:53:58] Yeah.

[00:53:58] You know?

[00:53:59] But the client needs to be – needs to be forthcoming with that as well.

[00:54:03] Yeah, that's right.

[00:54:04] You know?

[00:54:05] It's been a real theme in today's episode where it's just that relationship, that trust

[00:54:11] has to be a two-way street.

[00:54:12] It has to be.

[00:54:13] With this way of working.

[00:54:15] Yeah.

[00:54:15] Otherwise, it doesn't work.

[00:54:16] No, it doesn't work at all.

[00:54:17] And I'm sure you've been – I know you've been in that position where you've stuck to

[00:54:22] your guns in terms of your culture, your values.

[00:54:26] But unfortunately, in the quoting process, there's been times where someone's had a different

[00:54:31] –

[00:54:31] Absolutely.

[00:54:32] A different mentality.

[00:54:33] Yeah.

[00:54:33] And you've just had to part ways.

[00:54:34] And it'll happen.

[00:54:35] It doesn't work.

[00:54:36] It'll continue to happen.

[00:54:37] Yeah.

[00:54:37] You know what?

[00:54:38] And it's okay.

[00:54:39] Yeah.

[00:54:39] Like it's just identifying early and having the strength.

[00:54:42] And you know what?

[00:54:43] Sometimes you can't.

[00:54:44] No.

[00:54:44] So it's not as if I'm saying, you know, I'm not going to quote anyone that I don't like

[00:54:48] or I'm going to not quote if I don't think, you know, you've got the money or whatnot.

[00:54:52] It's basically that interaction.

[00:54:54] Yeah.

[00:54:54] Okay?

[00:54:55] Yeah.

[00:54:55] That interaction is missing in today's society.

[00:54:58] Yeah.

[00:54:58] Yeah.

[00:54:58] People are expected to know that they're going to go with each other.

[00:55:01] Yeah.

[00:55:01] Just with, you know, a half an hour.

[00:55:03] Or an email here or an email there.

[00:55:06] Yeah.

[00:55:06] In the investor space, that needs to change.

[00:55:09] Yeah.

[00:55:09] I agree.

[00:55:10] Okay?

[00:55:10] You need to spend time with who you think you want to do business with.

[00:55:14] Yeah.

[00:55:14] And all cards need to be on the table.

[00:55:16] Yeah.

[00:55:16] Yeah.

[00:55:17] You know, because if you're withholding information.

[00:55:19] Yeah.

[00:55:19] Well, then, mate, you get what you're given.

[00:55:22] Yeah.

[00:55:22] I agree.

[00:55:23] And even one of my, I guess, visions for this podcast is to lift, just lift our eyes and

[00:55:29] lift the quality of life of people doing projects.

[00:55:31] Because I think we've spoken a lot about it today, the lack of trust, the uncertainty around

[00:55:39] things.

[00:55:39] And I think a lot of, it doesn't get touched on a lot.

[00:55:42] It's minimising stress, minimising the lack of trust.

[00:55:45] And by doing these sort of things, and even by people listening, investors and developers

[00:55:51] who want to go down that pathway, they can realise there actually is a way you can tread.

[00:55:56] Absolutely.

[00:55:56] You can tread down a path that others don't want to tread.

[00:55:59] It's really refreshing that you touch on the quality of life.

[00:56:02] Because, you know, I've got some, you know, friends around me that think, oh, you're airy

[00:56:05] fairy.

[00:56:06] You know, it's, it's the way you talk about your clients, oh, you want to be friends,

[00:56:12] whatnot.

[00:56:13] It's, mate, I am spending more time with them than I do with you guys.

[00:56:18] Yeah.

[00:56:18] Yeah.

[00:56:19] You're spending a lot of time.

[00:56:21] And when you have multiple clients, all of a sudden, you're, you're surrounded by them.

[00:56:28] Yeah.

[00:56:28] And if you really don't have that trust, you don't have that, you know, the, the, the,

[00:56:34] the comfort, you don't have that environment, it's cancer.

[00:56:39] Do you really want to go down that road?

[00:56:41] Yeah.

[00:56:41] And I think a lot of builders really want to change that.

[00:56:45] Yes.

[00:56:45] But it's just, you know, the industry's not ready.

[00:56:48] Yeah.

[00:56:49] They're not ready.

[00:56:50] Yeah.

[00:56:50] And some builders just don't care.

[00:56:52] Yeah.

[00:56:52] I don't need to be mates.

[00:56:53] Yeah.

[00:56:53] You know, good on you.

[00:56:54] It's not for everybody.

[00:56:56] Yeah.

[00:56:58] I think the, it's, the industry will only benefit from it.

[00:57:02] Yeah.

[00:57:02] Because as time goes on, okay, work's taking over.

[00:57:08] Yeah.

[00:57:08] As much as we want our holidays, all of that kind of stuff, standard of living.

[00:57:12] Yeah.

[00:57:12] We want to try and work less, but it's not.

[00:57:15] Yeah.

[00:57:15] You know.

[00:57:16] Yeah.

[00:57:16] Especially with new people wanting to start businesses, kicking off.

[00:57:19] Yeah.

[00:57:20] Don't keep on making the mistakes lots of other people have.

[00:57:23] Yeah.

[00:57:23] You know.

[00:57:24] And it's like yourself, it's really, it's, it's really refreshing when you say that quality

[00:57:27] of life.

[00:57:28] Yeah.

[00:57:28] Yeah.

[00:57:28] Surround yourself with that dream team.

[00:57:31] Yeah.

[00:57:31] It's so simple.

[00:57:34] And yet people are just embarrassed to talk about it.

[00:57:36] Yeah.

[00:57:36] Yeah.

[00:57:36] That's right.

[00:57:36] You know.

[00:57:37] It's like, oh, this is business.

[00:57:38] It doesn't.

[00:57:38] Work can't be fun.

[00:57:39] Work can't be enjoyable.

[00:57:40] Yeah.

[00:57:40] I've got to make money.

[00:57:42] Yeah.

[00:57:42] Well, you're making money, pal, but you're enjoying it along the way.

[00:57:45] That's it.

[00:57:46] You know.

[00:57:46] That's it.

[00:57:47] That's it.

[00:57:47] So, yeah, it's really refreshing that you say that, especially with an audience like this.

[00:57:50] Yeah.

[00:57:51] You know.

[00:57:51] Yeah.

[00:57:51] Well, I think it's a cultural thing a lot of people want to align themselves with.

[00:57:56] And I think I speak to a lot of people, so I hear the battle stories of where they've

[00:58:03] been burnt.

[00:58:04] But a lot of people have been burnt sometimes because they've attracted burnt people.

[00:58:08] Yeah.

[00:58:09] Or they've had a mentality of just, you've got to stand on people's heads.

[00:58:14] You've got to step on heads.

[00:58:15] Yeah.

[00:58:16] Or they're ladder climbers rather than ladder holders, you know.

[00:58:19] I've always had a mentality of, you know, be someone who also holds a ladder to help other

[00:58:24] people get to greater heights.

[00:58:25] Absolutely.

[00:58:25] Don't always be someone who think that you have to climb ladders.

[00:58:30] Because my mentality is you help people get to greater heights.

[00:58:33] Yeah.

[00:58:33] You'll get to greater heights yourself.

[00:58:35] Absolutely, mate.

[00:58:35] Because people are attracted to people.

[00:58:38] Laws of attraction, mate.

[00:58:39] I'm a firm believer with it.

[00:58:40] You know.

[00:58:41] A hundred percent.

[00:58:41] And I just think there's builders out there, there's developers, investors, consultants.

[00:58:45] There's people out there who have that same philosophy and mentality.

[00:58:50] And I think that can only help the industry.

[00:58:53] Yeah.

[00:58:53] It can only lift this space and lift this field.

[00:58:55] Which I think it will.

[00:58:56] It's getting out there.

[00:58:57] Yeah, it is.

[00:58:57] You know.

[00:58:58] It is.

[00:58:58] And I think it's healthy.

[00:58:59] But look, mate, this has been a cracking episode.

[00:59:02] Yeah, thanks, mate.

[00:59:03] I appreciate it.

[00:59:04] I reckon we need to get you on a good handful more times.

[00:59:07] Yeah, I will.

[00:59:07] I've got some exciting news coming up a little bit.

[00:59:09] Yeah, definitely.

[00:59:10] I think we'll need to get you back on to talk about that.

[00:59:13] Even maybe Daniel at some stage.

[00:59:15] We'll get him on to talk about estimating.

[00:59:17] Absolutely.

[00:59:17] But mate, it's been absolutely unbelievable.

[00:59:19] Maybe you could just leave us with parting just a little bit of advice, something you

[00:59:23] could pass on to someone who's generated some wealth and wants to look to do a project,

[00:59:28] or maybe is even interested in getting in touch with you at Sky.

[00:59:32] Like maybe just share a thought or something to finish this with.

[00:59:36] Well, look, my advice would be is, you know, choose carefully, okay?

[00:59:40] And it's not always the product, okay?

[00:59:45] This builder, oh, they do a really good product.

[00:59:48] You know, they've got a great Instagram page.

[00:59:50] They've done lots of projects.

[00:59:52] What's he like?

[00:59:53] Oh, yeah, he's okay.

[00:59:54] And it's like they've just touched on so many things.

[00:59:57] And as soon as you've asked them about the individual themselves, oh, yeah,

[01:00:01] they haven't really looked into it, look into the person that's behind the company, okay?

[01:00:07] How the company's structured, right?

[01:00:10] And you need to feel comfortable.

[01:00:14] Yep.

[01:00:14] That's plain and simple.

[01:00:16] Feel comfortable with the process.

[01:00:18] Yep.

[01:00:18] And don't conform.

[01:00:19] If you're doing something that isn't the norm, but that's what you feel comfortable doing,

[01:00:24] stick to your guns.

[01:00:25] Yeah, yeah.

[01:00:26] You know?

[01:00:27] And it's, yeah, the project builders and a custom builder,

[01:00:30] don't treat the custom builder like they're too dear.

[01:00:33] No, no.

[01:00:34] Okay?

[01:00:34] Like it's a big perception that we've got.

[01:00:36] Yeah, we've got to break that.

[01:00:37] And one thing before I go, question marks, okay, on quotes.

[01:00:42] Question marks equal dollars.

[01:00:43] Yes.

[01:00:44] And that's what I tell all my clients.

[01:00:46] Yep.

[01:00:46] Okay?

[01:00:47] When they say, Michael, I want to compare apples to apples, man,

[01:00:51] it's apples and zucchini 95% of the time.

[01:00:53] Yeah, that's all right.

[01:00:54] You know?

[01:00:55] Yeah.

[01:00:55] So.

[01:00:56] No, that's good.

[01:00:57] Well, mate, it's been a pleasure to have you on.

[01:00:59] Thank you, mate.

[01:01:00] Yeah.

[01:01:00] Every time I talk to you, I learn more and more.

[01:01:02] Yeah.

[01:01:02] Look, I just think I'm sure there'll be a lot of people who've listened today

[01:01:06] that align with those values.

[01:01:08] And look, I just want to thank you all for listening in today.

[01:01:10] Look, if you are someone who does align with those values that Michael's

[01:01:16] spoken about today, and I know there's a lot of people out there who are

[01:01:19] wanting to go on this journey, even if you're looking to do a project

[01:01:22] in Michael's neck of the woods, which is all over the Illawarra,

[01:01:26] feel free to get in touch.

[01:01:28] We'll be putting Sky's, Sky Developments details in the show notes

[01:01:32] so you can get in touch with them.

[01:01:34] And make sure if you've enjoyed this episode, like, share, subscribe,

[01:01:38] share it with your family, your friends, anyone you know who wants to go on

[01:01:42] the exciting journey of doing property and doing well in property.

[01:01:46] So thanks for listening in and we'll see you next week.

[01:01:48] Bye.